Could Mirage Arcana be used to cause someone to drown themselves?

[Arravis]

Perhaps the solution to this issue is to go by the nomenclature of the RAW itself. Beyond the ability to alter the appearance of structures (or add them) and the spell affecting more senses, the spell works exactly like Hallucinatory Terrain. And that spell makes one natural terrain like another natural terrain. So perhaps the answer is as simple as allowing one natural terrain, through the illusion, to become like any other natural terrain... and Natural Terrains are defined in the SRD as Dungeon, Forest, Marsh, Hill, Mountain, Desert, Plains, Aquatic, and Urban.
This would seem the most reasonable answer to me.

 

[akbearfoot]

If mirage arcana cannot disguise creatures and make them appear different, then you've still got the floating hair issue. Also, I think aboleth have a mucus cloud thing that surrounds them when they are underwater....Would it not be odd too see an aboleth in open air surrounded by a cloud of wet mucus.

Air elementals are made of one of the 4 elements that compose existance....If mirage arcana can create an illusion of air, then it should also be able to create solid earth.

So...now you see earth in your eyes(or rather complete darkness sincebeing burried means there is no light), you feel yourself surrounded on all sides, you cannot breath, you cannot move, you cannot hear since your ears -feel- full of earth, you cannot feel your allies pushing you around since you believe your surrounded and even if they knock you on the ground you still -feel- like your exactly where you started in exactly the same position....If you get stabbed you don't -feel- it because earth doesen't feel like a knife in the back....none of this sounds a little overboard for a 5th level spell? You can even say that the creatures surrounding you are NOT being disguised, rather they are all just 'hiding' behind the terrain. And since you can't get another save since your perception of being burried prevents you from hearing someone tell you there is an illusion, you would eventually suffocate yourself since you are magically prevented from breathing since you believe you cannot breath solid earth? The spell itself isnt harming you, it's just preventing you from breathing....which in turn causes suffocation.

Compare this power to the 9th level Weird spell.


Are you saying that if someone uses mirage arcana to create a false bridge and a person walks over the bridge and fails their save then their senses will tell them that they are still standing on the bridge, and walking over it, up to and including after they go splat and take 20d6 at the bottom, where they still think they are walking over the bridge...And they aren't allowed a second saving throw until someone TELLS them there is an illusion? Exactly where do you draw the line on the extent that your senses are fooled?

I am a big fan of illusions personally, but this type of interpretation makes illusions way too obscenely powerful.

*edit* lol. maybe this spell is why some people remember sniper fire where there is none and fail to notice entire groups of 7th graders at their greeting ceremonies

 

[Arravis]

*nods* I'm with you on the hair issue... as far as the aboleth, he's not going to be within the Mirage Arcana area, but in another part of the cave.

And I don't see a reason why you couldn't make an area of solid earth, although its quite unlikely anyone would attempt to walk into the area... but let us assume that it was cast upon the area you're in. Yes, you would "feel yourself surrounded on all sides, you cannot breath, you cannot move, you cannot hear since your ears -feel- full of earth". You don't suddenly die of this and it couldn't suffocate you (although the creature might choose to hold its breath). Weird causes real damage and can potentially kill you outright, this wouldn't. Is it so different then using the spell to create quicksand? I don't see the problem you do.

If someone is going to argue you can't create quicksand because of some "sense of gravity" or some other such thing... then why stop there? Why not make sand, mud, and snow not work... since you don't actually sink into anything. Its an environment changing spell... let it change the environment, otherwise, what's the point?

 

[werk]

I don't think this is a strawman...

If someone is going to argue you can't create quicksand because of some "sense of gravity" or some other such thing... then why stop there? Why not make sand, mud, and snow not work... since you don't actually sink into anything. Its an environment changing spell... let it change the environment, otherwise, what's the point?

Two Scenarios to simplify your point:

1. A hallway with a spike pit, you use mirage arcana to make it appear as normal floor, target would walk over the pit and fall thru/in.

2. A normal hallway is made to appear to have a spike pit trap using mirage arcana...does the target fall in/get impaled?


Right now I'm hung up on the description from glamer "They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures...." This would seem to say scenaio 1 is the intended use, where scenario 2 is right out.
Extrapolating from that, the water is an existing hazard that is masked by the illusion, rather than a hazard created by the illusion, and the OP's strategy would be spot on due to the spell's description and inferred intent (mask hazards = mislead targets).

 

[Arravis]

To clarify one point, I'm not arguing that if you were to create an illusion of a spiked pit via Mirage Arcana, that it would cause damage. I don't think it would, but I do think you could make the illusion work to some extent... I would DM it that you'd "fall", hit the spikes, but they wouldn't cause any damage to you. The fall would feel real, the spikes would feel sharp, but, no damage would be caused at all.

 

[ElectricDragon]

The reason to make an illusion of a spiked pit is to make the players go around something they don't have to. Stepping into the pit would entail (IMO) a Balance check DC5 or fall prone. No damage, only prone.

The air bubbles and the floating hair seem to me to be examples of

A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

 

[Arravis]

ElectricDragon, I agree with you that an illusionary spiked pit would, in the end, result in making the victim prone. And I think you might have a good one with the bubble's issue... although wouldn't the bubbles be considered part of the environment? They aren't creatures or part of a creature any more. The floating hair though is a pretty good give away... but I don't know, D&D has so many weird spells and effects, they could believe it was some other magical effect. I think a spot check would be in order since they would be he swimming quickly, running out of breath, looking for a place to finally take in some air in. Would it fool them for more than one panicked round? Probably not, but all that's needed is that one panicked round.

 

[ElectricDragon]

The bubbles would be no more a part of that environment than if someone breathed cold condensation (and thus visible) air in a cold environment made to look like a desert. Things added by creatures are not a part of the environment. So the illusionist should try to use as little opposite change as possible to lessen the chance to auto fail for the spell. The spell would not automatically cover any bubbles made by creatures entering the area, that would require concentration on the part of the caster or be preset like a programmed illusion. The spell does not continually adjust itself for each little thing that happens in the area, unless that thing is naturally occuring and thus environmental.

BTW, how is the party breathing underwater anyway? Your description seems to put them far underwater for a long duration (several caverns down). Why would their water breathing just stop because they entered an air cavern? Don't tell me that they are holding their breath while exploring an extensive underwater dungeon, that's just ludicrous. A water breathing spell would enhance the illusion though, but there would be no chance of drowning.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Arravis]

The bubbles would be no more a part of that environment than if someone breathed cold condensation (and thus visible) air in a cold environment made to look like a desert.

So, what exactly IS the point of this environmental illusion spell if it can be instantly disbelieved by breathing? It seems utterly and completely ridiculous to me that a 5th level illusion designed around the very concept of changing what the environment seems to be could not turn a cold environment into a warm one. This makes no sense at all... why even have the spell exist?

Could you not with the same exact logic argue that since the creature is not part of the environment, his hand will always go through illusionary walls? And why stop there? Might as well drop the illusion school altogether.

And to answer your other question, the caves are mostly above ground with some connecting tunnels underwater.

 

[Shayuri]

So, what exactly IS the point of this environmental illusion spell if it can be instantly disbelieved by breathing? It seems utterly and completely ridiculous to me that a 5th level illusion designed around the very concept of changing what the environment seems to be could not turn a cold environment into a warm one. This makes no sense at all... why even have the spell exist?

Could you not with the same exact logic argue that since the creature is not part of the environment, his hand will always go through illusionary walls? And why stop there? Might as well drop the illusion school altogether.

And to answer your other question, the caves are mostly above ground with some connecting tunnels underwater.

Ho there, slow down.

I said it before, I'll say it again. Illusions are great, but have things they do well, and things they don't do so well. Like Hallucinatory Terrain, it's best...it's in its element...when its being used to do fairly subtle things. And by subtle, I mean concealing hazards (hazards being landscape features ), changing seasons, making an old rundown keep into a magnificent palace... As with any illusion, the more overt the effect, the easier it will be to spot problems with. Does this make it, or any illusion, pointless? Course not!

You just have to understand the limits of the medium, and plan for it. A real creature's hand WILL always go through an illusory wall. So how do you cope? Well, either arrange for something to be there (ie - make a real wall that's just covered by the illusion) or arrange for there to be good reasons not to put your hand through it (thorns, snakes, flames...etc). The best illusionists will mix reality with illusion unpredictably, so the victims are never sure if THIS snake is real or not, or if that flame will really burn.

So if you make an illusion of a cold area being warm, it's a good idea to plan for that fog breath. Make the warm area misty! Like hot springs. Lots of fog around, and it has nothing to do with breath. So it won't seem peculiar (though I'd allow spot checks to notice even then...).