Could Mirage Arcana be used to cause someone to drown themselves?

[Arravis]

A real creature's hand WILL always go through an illusory wall.

Again I'll disagree with you on that. Mirage Arcana is a glamer, able to do quite a bit more than a figment does. Again, what's the point of a 5th level spell that can create environments and buildings, if all needs to do to totally negate them is breathe or walk through them?

Seems to me that your version of illusionary magic needs to be much lower level, because compared to spells of their current level, they don't compare at all. They are nigh useless or required such "subtlety" as to be only usable in extremely specific circumstances. Again, leading to their lack of use in D&D. It's a 5th level spell... its not meant to be weak or subtle.

 

[Shayuri]

Well gosh, I dunno. What's the point of a 5th level wall of force if you can just teleport through it? What's the point of -any- spell?

Come on. I'm fine with disagreement...that's all good. But the "what's the point" thing just doesn't hold up.

If you use Mirage Arcana intelligently, it can do all kinds of things. But not even a glamer can make an illusion solid, nor a solid not-solid. In short, a figment creates the appearance of something where there actually isn't anything. A glamer changes the appearance of something into something else. Neither affects substance, nor reality.

Mirage Arcana is capable of changing the appearance of a wide swath of terrain and/or constructions, making it a very useful spell in some circumstances, if used within the parameters that it can operate under. It's only when someone tries to make it do something it can't do that it seems inadequate.

There's other spells. If all you want to do is choke people to death, may I suggest Cloudkill? It's 5th level too.

 

[Arravis]

Using Teleport to overcome Wall of Force requires the casting of an equally powerful spell to overcome, not something as simple as breathing or touching. It seems clear to me that some of you have a specific scenario in which illusions are to be used in (trap/hazard covering), and anything that deviates from that scenario is stricken down. And I'm not making a "what's the point" cop-out...

• It's a 5th level spell and it should be the same in power as other 5th level spells.

• Its a spell that specifically does nothing but change "terrains", as clearly defined in the SRD, yet some terrains are acceptable and some are not, although the spell places no such limits.

Are the effects of this spell so fearsome when compared to other spells of the same level as to warrant this level of nerfing? Where simply walking, breathing, or touching negate it altogether? Yes, under some circumstances the spell might be particularly useful (casting it underwater), but is that any more than any other spell? Would casting Wall of Fire on an ice floe be too powerful cause it melts the ice? Don't penalize spells because they are used in clever ways... this seems quite narrow minded to me.

 

[Shayuri]

I think you're overreacting a bit. What you seem to be implying is that one spell should be able to do the job of several. Make walls, impediments, even kill! If it could do all that, why would there be a Shadow Conjuration or its variants? People would just use Mirage Arcana for all their battlefield controlling needs.

Anyway, I'm just telling you my take on things. If you want to run it this way, go for it. Best of luck with your players.

 

[Arravis]

Yes, it should well be able to make those who fail their save believe there is an impediment, but nowhere did I say or even imply the spell can kill. The lethality of it does not come from the spell, be it an illusionary bridge, a deep spiked pit, or an area filled with water, the spell doesn't kill the environment itself does.

Every DM determines how something "should" work on their own, what I'm looking for in this forum is how the RAW determine it functions.

 

[Shayuri]

Okay. So read the SRD. Or the DMG/PHB.

I don't see how what's there supports your contentions, but it's already clear we disagree, so there's no shock there.

 

[Arravis]

That's the internet for you .
It just seems to me that the use of the word "Terrain", and with that word being defined in the RAW, leaves it fairly clear.

 

[Sol.Dragonheart]

Unfortunately, it would seem that this use of the spell would, assuming failed saves and SR checks, work just fine. The spell specifically lists that it changes the tactile sensations of those under its effects. Personally, I would avoid using the spell in this manner, however, as it takes advantage of the absolutely terrible environmental rules present in the D&D system. It also punishes a party beyond the already intrinsic penalties present, for failing to use magic to overcome the hostile water environment.

 

[Jhaelen]

Unfortunately, it would seem that this use of the spell would, assuming failed saves and SR checks, work just fine.

No, it wouldn't.

The spell specifically lists that it changes the tactile sensations of those under its effects.

Being submerged in water affects several senses that are NOT covered by your tactile sense.
Unless you houserule that 'tactile' covers every sensory impression beyond visual, audio, olfactory & taste there is no way you can hide, e.g. the effect on your sense of balance/equilibrium.

Therefore, if you're interested in the spell's effect according to RAW it just won't work the way it was initially proposed. If you feel the spell as written isn't on par with other spells of its level, feel free to houserule it to become more effective. I actually agree that the spell should be able to do more at this level - it's just not supported by the RAW.

I've already pointed out the similarities between the OPs intended effect and 'crisis of breath' - a 3rd level power that affects a single target. I'd use this as a basis for a reasonable houserule.

 

[Stalker0]

I'll take the example of an air filled room that has the illusion its filled with water.

I would certainly offer my players a save, as there is most certainly interaction. The environment is causing them to hold their breath, to swim instead of walk, etc.

Second, on a failed save, the players would try to hold their breath until the drowned timer ran out. And then, their brain would force them to take a breath. Now they might feel like they are taking in water, but they wouldn't die (their bodies are receiving oxygen). I would allow another save at this point, as their is obviously something weird going on. On a second failure, I would rule the players feel something must have happened to them. Perhaps they were given water breathing, perhaps they are changing into fish creatures. Some reasonable explanation (considering it is a fantasy world) that explains how they are in a watery environment and not dying.