Could Wizards ACTUALLY make MOST people happy with a new edition?

[Gundark]

I still reckon Paizo will need to bring out Pathfinder 2nd ed at some point in time, making some deep changes to the system to really address the fundamentally broken bits of high level d20 play (it's a bit revealing imho that even Paizo doesn't try to get PCs to 20th level in their adventure paths as a matter of course). When they do, I think they'll cop a fair bit of the same heat that WotC are copping with the 5e recon they're doing at the moment. Though probably not QUITE as much - WotC is still (for a number of reasons, of which not all are rubbish) the company a lot of gamers love to hate, and Paizo has a lot of goodwill stored up

I do question what PF2.0 will look like, and that is really a topic of discussion all on it's own. I kinda doubt it'll just be an update, Paizo will get to a point where they'll have to do something different. Then that will be interesting to see.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm now one of the cool mysterious guys that lingers in the dark corner with my hood pulled over my head.

He's a Death Eater! GET HIM!

 

[Beginning of the End]

So this makes me wonder, could WotC actually make the majority of people happy with a new edition?

In order to have any chance at creating a new edition that would make the majority of people happy, you would need a system that included---

(a) The cleaner math, simpler prep, dynamic combat options, and many of the other features of 4E; with

(b) The gameplay that was marketed as D&D from 1974 to 2008.

I believe such a game is theoretically possible. OTOH, I don't believe that WotC has any interest in creating such a game.

And even if they did, there's a lot of ancillary work WotC would have to do at this point to start healing rifts. At the very least, they would have to improve the quality of their support products; reverse several of their unpopular decisions; and generally show a higher degree of respect for their customers.

I'm not convinced that WotC -- as an organization -- is interested in or capable of doing any of that, either.

Plus, you may be right. That may not be enough. The reality is that people who like pre-2008 D&D are playing the best supported RPGs in history with new, high-quality support coming out every single day. Given that those people legitimately enjoy the game they're playing, it's not just enough for WotC to produce something that's better than 3E at providing the pre-2008 D&D gameplay. They have to produce something MUCH better in order to counter-balance the advantages of experience and support the older system(s) have.

That could be done in 2000 with 3E because:

(1) The older edition could be taken out of print. (The OGL stops you from doing that.)

(2) There was widespread dissatisfaction with the AD&D ruleset, including a substantial body of ex-D&D players who could be brought back into the fold by fixing the problems they had with the rules. (WotC thought they had identified similar dissatisfaction with D&D3, but the proof is in the pudding: A significant portion of that fanbase wasn't dissatisfied with the stuff WotC that they were dissatisfied with.)

(3) Although there was a large body of existing support material, WotC could also take that support material out of print. (The OGL and digital distribution have taken that option away. And it was still only a fraction of the support material that now exists for 3E.)

(4) TSR had created a great deal of bad-will. WotC was a new company and could make a completely clean break from the past.

More fundamentally, I think the nature of the dissatisfaction in 2000 was significantly different than the dissatisfaction that now exists: There was a fairly widespread consensus on what the problems with the AD&D ruleset were. And most of those problems could be fixed without eliminating the core gameplay of D&D.

In 2008, WotC addressed a different sort of dissatisfaction and fundamentally changed the core gameplay of D&D. In a world without an OGL, this would be a mistake. In a world with an OGL, it may be an irreparable one. Paizo now owns the segment of the market that fundamentally likes 3E but wouldn't mind seeing it improved in a variety of minor ways.

How can you win that segment of the market back? I honestly don't know. Big changes won't do it. Those players specifically aren't interested in big changes. And big changes also means divorcing yourself from the massive 3E support network, which gives you another huge hurdle to clear.

But small changes won't do it, either. Small changes won't justify making the switch back from Pathfinder. WotC can't even really offer the advantages of "official support" because Paizo is out-producing them in terms of quality products.

 

[DumbPaladin]

No.

All the other "no" or "doubtful" votes have made all the good points already.

 

[Beginning of the End]

I kinda doubt it'll just be an update, Paizo will get to a point where they'll have to do something different.

Really? Why?

AFAICT, Paizo is doing what WotC either can't or won't do: They're investing in a business plan that won't burn itself out by focusing on adventure products instead of splatbooks.

See, splatbooks invariably reach a point of saturation: Your customers reach the point where they have all the mechanical options they could ever want and it becomes more and more difficult to convince them that they really need Monster Manual 7 or Book o' Feats 18.

Adventures, OTOH, are consumables. (And even moreso in a culture which reads the adventures for solo entertainment value.) Once you've played through the last set, you'll need a new set. There is no saturation point. Your customers will simply continue buying on a perpetual subscription basis.

 

[Echohawk]

AFAICT, Paizo is doing what WotC either can't or won't do: They're investing in a business plan that won't burn itself out by focusing on adventure products instead of splatbooks.

I don't think this is quite borne out by the facts. I think it would be more accurate to say that Paizo is focusing on adventures and splatbooks. That will certainly slow down the burn out rate, but won't prevent them from eventually reaching saturation point with crunch.

Some stats:
* Number of Paizo adventure releases in the last two years: 39
* Number of Paizo non-adventure releases in the last two years: 39
* Things I'm not sure how to count (Player's Guides, Maps): 9

 

[delericho]

So this makes me wonder, could WotC actually make the majority of people happy with a new edition?

No, I don't think so. With 5e they'll probably carry over most of the 4e people, they'll no doubt lose some 4e people, they'll bring back some number of lapsed players, they'll bring back some number of old-edition/retro-clone/Pathfinder players... but they'll not reunify the market as 3e did, at least at this present time.

Are WotC just the hated big guy that draws a lot of fire from people (granted they've made unpopular choices)? Is WotC in a no win situation?

Yes, and yes.

A lot of people feel that WotC have abandoned them (rightly or wrongly). As such, there are a lot of people angry at WotC (again, rightly or wrongly). So, WotC could give away 5e for free, it could be the perfect game, and some people would still complain.

I imagine if say Paizo came out with with these articles as the possible new direction that Pathfinder would be taking the response would definitely be more positive.

It's really hard to say. Paizo have a hugely better relationship with their fans (and even with neutrals in the marketplace). As such, if they took Pathfinder in a radically new direction they might carry people with them.

On the other hand, they may not. It's hard to tell how many Pathfinder fans are really fans of the system, and how many are fans of the company.

But with a lot of these things, it's not always about what you say. It's often just as much about who says it, and how they say it. And on that front, Paizo very definitely have the edge over WotC.

 

[Jhaelen]

Wizards lost me because they made a new edition. Making another new edition is not going to bring me back.

Reading this, I just had an epiphany:

Back in the days, TSR lost _me_ because they _did not_ make a new edition.

I was quite happy playing AD&D 1e until I learned more about other rpg systems and started to feel that 1e was hopelessly outdated. Then came 2e and ... nothing much changed. For me it was too little too late.

So I turned my back on D&D for a couple of years. 3e brought me back. They had overhauled D&D completely and almost everything that I enjoyed in other rpgs that had been missing from D&D was now present.

As time went by (and the average party level went up), the 'ugly' side of 3e showed its face: It put too much work on the DM because it was just too difficult to prep. Combat was getting tedious and took hours even for relatively simple encounters.

Then 4e came along and addressed most of the issues with 3e. However, it also changed a lot of other things, turning D&D into a different game much to the chagrin of many players.

_I_ was still happy with 4e until the Essentials disaster. Luckily I'm not DMing at the moment, otherwise I'd say it's time to turn my back on D&D again - at least for a while.

 

[Echohawk]

While I think it is pretty clear that WotC will never be able to please everyone, I do think that there are some things they could do to please more current D&D players (by which I mean people who are playing all editions of the game, including Pathfinder).

1. Bring back some form of distribution channel for out-of-print products from older editions. Making electronic versions of BECMI/1e/2e/3e products available in some fashion would please a number of people, and perhaps more importantly, would win them back some positive sentiment. I think that the market for electronic publishing has matured enough now that the piracy issues should no longer be a major concern for WotC, and I'll be surprised if we don't see some developments along these lines during the next year or so.

2. Release more edition-neutral products, like Dungeon Tiles and the upcoming Map Packs. We're already seeing a shift towards more physical components -- boxed sets with counters and maps -- but at the moment, those are still being marketed as accessories for 4th edition. I suspect that some clever marketing could easily broaden the market of such products, perhaps by explicitly labeling them as "Edition Neutral".

3a. Include more support for older editions in the online content and perhaps even in some printed releases. We saw this for the first time on DDI last month, when conversion notes for 1e and 2e were included with an article. Doing more of this might result in some warm fuzzy feeling from folks who don't play 4e. This support needn't be more than some conversion notes included as an appendix to be useful.

3b. Actively market the Virtual Table Top as supporting older editions of the game. It already explicitly includes older versions of the game as options for sessions, but they aren't really supported from a crunch point of view yet. I think that a big chunk of the target market for the VTT is gamers who played previous editions, but who have drifted away from their gaming groups, so targeting those folks makes sense to me.

4. Release a line of "D&D classic reprints", which would be reprints of out-of-print material, possibly bundled with 4e updates. We've already seen a number of classic updated to 4e (Village of Hommlet, Tomb of Horrors and the upcoming Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan). Bundle those with reprints of the originals and maybe a nice map or two that will be useful for either version of the adventure, and they'll be snapped up by collectors and fans of older editions alike. Even if these are limited edition releases, they will still create the impression that WotC cares about older editions.

 

[IronWolf]

I don't think this is quite borne out by the facts. I think it would be more accurate to say that Paizo is focusing on adventures and splatbooks. That will certainly slow down the burn out rate, but won't prevent them from eventually reaching saturation point with crunch.

Some stats:
* Number of Paizo adventure releases in the last two years: 39
* Number of Paizo non-adventure releases in the last two years: 39
* Things I'm not sure how to count (Player's Guides, Maps): 9

I would like to see more information behind these numbers you posted. Your non-adventure releases number looks like it is lumping together a good number of things that are much less rule dependent than things like the core rulebook, APG, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic which are more a part of the actual ruleset.