D&D 5E Countering Rest Spells (Tiny Hut, Rope Trick, et al)

[Bitbrain]

My players in my first campaign once tried to rest inside a tiny hut.

The homebrew CR-9 Water Drake they were tasked to hunt down simply burrowed underneath it and created a geyser. They did eventually manage to kill it, but boy were they surprised when the floor burst open underneath them, and the dome started flooding with scalding hot water...

 

[pukunui]

If he has (I haven't seen it) it's not in the official compendium. He's said that some of his tweets were made after a long night in a bar and shouldn't necessarily be considered "official" by any means.

Huh. I thought it did make it into the compendium but I guess not. Here’s the relevant tweet anyway:

 

[Oofta]

Huh. I thought it did make it into the compendium but I guess not. Here’s the relevant tweet anyway:

The fact that it's a hemisphere doesn't make sense to my brain. Either it's solid, or it's hollow. It has to be a hollow hemisphere so ... to have a "floor" is completely up to the DM. But that's just me, and a common ruling from other DMs I've played with.

 

[Nebulous]

So how about Anti- rope trick?

Version 1: enemies don't see you enter.
Version 2: they do see you enter.

Version 1 is pretty tough as it is impossible to see without see invisible or detect magic. Can a spellcaster or true sight "see" the window, and move and attack someone inside the rope trick? For instance, can a wizard hover up, put his hand inside and cast fireball into the interdimensional space? Or more mundane, throw a flaming molatav? Hover in, throw it, exit. Assuming an enemy has a way to enter without climbing.

Another option - again with spellcasters - is to set a nasty trap at the bottom of the rope trick and then dispel magic, dumping all the PCs onto the trap. Could a devious wizard place a Bag of Holding into the rope trick extradimensional space and trigger an astral rip?

Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a Handy Haversack, Portable Hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The gate originates where the one item was placed inside the other. Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it to a random location on the Astral Plane. The gate then closes. The gate is one-way only and can't be reopened.



You touch a length of rope that is up to 60 feet long. One end of the rope then rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground. At the upper end of the rope, an Invisible entrance opens to an extradimensional space that lasts until the spell ends.

The extradimensional space can be reached by climbing to the top of the rope. The space can hold as many as eight Medium or smaller creatures. The rope can be pulled into the space, making the rope disappear from view outside the space.

Attacks and Spells can't cross through the entrance into or out of the extradimensional space, but those inside can see out of it as if through a 3-foot-by-5-foot window centered on the rope.

Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends.

 

[Oofta]

So how about Anti- rope trick?

Version 1: enemies don't see you enter.
Version 2: they do see you enter.

Version 1 is pretty tough as it is impossible to see without see invisible or detect magic. Can a spellcaster or true sight "see" the window, and move and attack someone inside the rope trick? For instance, can a wizard hover up, put his hand inside and cast fireball into the interdimensional space? Or more mundane, throw a flaming molatav? Hover in, throw it, exit. Assuming an enemy has a way to enter without climbing.

Another option - again with spellcasters - is to set a nasty trap at the bottom of the rope trick and then dispel magic, dumping all the PCs onto the trap. Could a devious wizard place a Bag of Holding into the rope trick extradimensional space and trigger an astral rip?

Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a Handy Haversack, Portable Hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The gate originates where the one item was placed inside the other. Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it to a random location on the Astral Plane. The gate then closes. The gate is one-way only and can't be reopened.

I once tried to take out a fellow PC doing something similar, but a fellow PC stopped me in time. In my defense, I was dominated at the time.

Rope trick is nice, but still open to some of the same issues as Tiny Hut. Basically if the bad guys know you're there (or have reason to suspect) they have an hour to prep. If the ceiling is low because you cast indoors, they might even be able to do something as simple as start a bonfire under the opening and smoke you out.

 

[Quickleaf]

FWIW Jeremy Crawford has ruled in Sage Advice that the tiny hut does have a floor. Personally I’m not a fan of that ruling, but some will undoubtedly play it that way.

Jeremy Crawford actually pivoted his position on whether tiny hut has a floor. You can see both of his positions in the link below. In December 2016 he said there is no floor. Then about a month later in January 2017 he said there is a floor.

Does Leomund's Tiny Hut have a floor?

D&D Sage Advice ·

www.sageadvice.eu

The problem comes from the spell description contradicting itself.

The text of the spell describes the tiny hut multiple times as a "dome" (a dome would lack a floor), while the single-line for range reads "Range: Self (10-foot-radius hemisphere)" (a hemisphere would have a floor).

So far there's no errata, but I anticipate it being addressed.

Personally, in contradicting situations like this I treat whatever text appears most often (dome) as the intended design, with whatever text appears less often (hemisphere) as incorrect.

 

[Bacon Bits]

I would generally say that the rest-enablers have not been a problem in our campaigns. The amount of hate the spells got in the other thread was grossly disproportionate, IMO.

First of all, attacking the players while they rest isn't that critical to the game. It's just not. You might like the verisimilitude it brings, but it's really not that interesting of a concept.

Second, the mere existence of these spells says pretty clearly that the designers intend that if the PCs try to rest hard enough, they should be able to do it. The game assumes that it's possible. Consequently, I see no real problem with alarm, rope trick, or magnificent mansion. Similarly, goodberry and create food and water mean that the game assumes food and water should be problems that magic can readily solve. If you don't like that you're free to change the game.

I think the only remotely questionable spell is tiny hut, and even then I don't think the hate was entirely warranted. I kept seeing people say that their players were using multiple tiny hut spells to block off parts of the dungeon. This struck me as strange, because even in 5e the spell specifies that the spell immediately ends if the caster leaves the area of effect.

It's worth noting, too, that in prior editions where tiny hut didn't hedge creatures out that it cost 1 action to cast. It was quite a useful combat spell in 3e simply because it provided concealment for all occupants.

If I were to change tiny hut at all, I would make it work kind of like like sanctuary or invisibility. I would take this:

Nine creatures of Medium size or smaller can fit inside the dome with you. The spell fails if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures. Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it. Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it. The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside.

Until the spell ends, you can command the interior to become dimly lit or dark. The dome is opaque from the outside, of any color you choose, but it is transparent from the inside.

Shuffle it around for clarity, and change it to this:

Nine creatures of Medium size or smaller can fit inside the dome with you. The spell fails if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures. The atmosphere inside the space is comfortable and dry, regardless of the weather outside. Until the spell ends, you can command the interior to become dimly lit or dark. The dome is opaque from the outside, of any color you choose, but it is transparent from the inside.

Creatures and objects within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely. Spells and other magical effects can't extend through the dome or be cast through it.

Additionally, the dome provides limited protection to occupants. Any creatures and objects not within the dome when you cast this spell are barred from passing through the dome. However, if, while inside the dome, any of the creatures attacks, casts a spell that affects an enemy, or deals damage to another creature then this limited protection ends and any creatures and objects may pass through the dome freely. The dome remains opaque from the outside, potentially providing any occupants with concealment.

 

[uzirath]

So how about Anti- rope trick?

I've always enjoyed Rope Trick, both as a player and DM.

Version 1: enemies don't see you enter.

Yeah, this is harder. I have always assumed that the window is visible to some sorts of divination magic. In the typical scenarios where I've seen it used, however, it wasn't logical that the opposition would be looking for it, so it hasn't come up.

Version 2: they do see you enter.

As player and DM, this scenario is much more common. I've had groups retreat into it when they were feeling overwhelmed. I've also had groups use it without realizing that they were being observed. One of the most common responses is to have something ready to attack from above when people come out. (I've always assumed that the window looks down, so you can't see anything above it.) Could be ranged attacks from a cliff or high balcony (both situations have happened) or flying creatures.

I haven't thought much about trying to attack into the space, but that could be interesting. The Bag of Holding idea is fun, but would require a caster who is willing to both sacrifice a valuable magic item and potentially let themselves be sucked into the astral plane. Seems like a pretty rare situation!

 

[Oofta]

I would generally say that the rest-enablers have not been a problem in our campaigns. The amount of hate the spells got in the other thread was grossly disproportionate, IMO.

First of all, attacking the players while they rest isn't that critical to the game. It's just not. You might like the verisimilitude it brings, but it's really not that interesting of a concept.

Second, the mere existence of these spells says pretty clearly that the designers intend that if the PCs try to rest hard enough, they should be able to do it. The game assumes that it's possible. Consequently, I see no real problem with alarm, rope trick, or magnificent mansion. Similarly, goodberry and create food and water mean that the game assumes food and water should be problems that magic can readily solve. If you don't like that you're free to change the game.

I think the only remotely questionable spell is tiny hut, and even then I don't think the hate was entirely warranted. I kept seeing people say that their players were using multiple tiny hut spells to block off parts of the dungeon. This struck me as strange, because even in 5e the spell specifies that the spell immediately ends if the caster leaves the area of effect.

It's worth noting, too, that in prior editions where tiny hut didn't hedge creatures out that it cost 1 action to cast. It was quite a useful combat spell in 3e simply because it provided concealment for all occupants.

If I were to change tiny hut at all, I would make it work kind of like like sanctuary or invisibility. I would take this:



Shuffle it around for clarity, and change it to this:

My reason to create this thread because I've never had an issue with Tiny Hut either. Used in an what to me is an appropriate situation, I don't have a problem with it. If the party is on the road it gives them protection from random beasts and the elements. In the middle of hostile territory? When the enemy knows you're there? It's not going to end well for the party.

I assume monsters and NPCs respond to threats according to their intelligence level. Unlike video games, enemies are not limited to a predefined script.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Burying the hut under a mudslide would be a pretty nasty way to trap the party. Assuming they don't have escape magic for everyone, that would bring a lot of weight down on their heads.

The 5th level spell Transmute Rock should do the trick. Cast on the ceiling it would drown the hut in mud, then back to stone... The PC could even die of lack of oxygen, should you rule that it exists and is needed to breathe in your setting, so they'd get a time pressure to break the rock. I feel some of the nasty tricks should only be attempted once each... but they could be fun for all if played well.