D&D 5E Counterspell Variant: More Specific, Lower Level

[doctorbadwolf]

Alright so I spend a lot of time thinking about countering casters in fantasy games. It’s a fun thing for me as a player, and as a DM.

But Counterspell is...thematically limited.

Solution? Variants that target certain types of spells.

So here is my basic thoughts for a countering spell for conjuring!

Conjurer’s Foil
Level: 2 Casting Time: Bonus Action Range/Area: 60ft Components: S

Duration: 1 minute, Concentration School: Abjuration Save: Con

You create a barb in the magical connection between the target and another creature within 120ft of the target*. Both creatures must make a Con save or take 1d10 Force Damage. Once per round when you deal damage to either target, the other target takes damage equal to your spellcasting modifier, as long as it remains within 120 ft of you or the other target.

[scale with spell levels]

* I’d like to restrict it to a creature and another creature already tied by magic, but that’s complex.

The design goal here is to have a spell that specifically screws summoners, making it hard to maintain concentration, and punishing them for keeping their pets around.

I’d love feedback, and please share your ideas for specific spells that counter the magic of others in new and interesting ways.

 

[Leatherhead]

For a lower level "Counterspell," maybe a level one spell that forces a concentration check (perhaps with a penalty of some kind for upcasting) would be the way to go. The only question is what DC to start with. The DC would have to be higher than your Save DC, otherwise you would be better off just casting Magic Missile and using the raw damage to force a check most of the time (or forcing three checks, if the table prefers)

 

[doctorbadwolf]

For a lower level "Counterspell," maybe a level one spell that forces a concentration check (perhaps with a penalty of some kind for upcasting) would be the way to go. The only question is what DC to start with. The DC would have to be higher than your Save DC, otherwise you would be better off just casting Magic Missile and using the raw damage to force a check most of the time (or forcing three checks, if the table prefers)

Exactly right, IMO.

A simple lesser Counterspell would just force a concentration save, perhaps as a bonus action. Not sure I agree with it needing to be higher than your Save DC. That should usually be higher than half magic missile damage.

 

[Leatherhead]

The lowest any damage based concentration check can go is 10. At level 1, with a 16 in your primary stat, your save DC is 13.

I don't see an effective 3 point penalty to a D20 roll (while sacrificing all your damage) being worth a level one spell slot. In comparison, Shield gives a 5 point penalty to multiple potential rolls, and extra goodies on top of that.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

The lowest any damage concentration check can go is 10. At level 1, with a 16 in your primary stat, your save DC is 13.

I don't see an effective 3 point penalty to a D20 roll (while sacrificing all your damage) being worth a level one spell slot. In comparison, Shield gives a 5 point penalty to multiple potential rolls, and extra goodies on top of that.

As a standard action, could you do it as a cantrip?

 

[Leatherhead]

As a standard action, could you do it as a cantrip?

Do you mean make the potential "Lesser Counterspell" as a cantrip instead of a level 1 spell?

Well the math would line up more or less with Guidance. Though I wouldn't imagine anyone taking it unless it was a caster-heavy campaign and you were all-in on making an anti-mage from level one. While weak, cantrips are paradoxically more valuable to most classes than level one spells due to the limited number of them you have access too.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The lowest any damage based concentration check can go is 10. At level 1, with a 16 in your primary stat, your save DC is 13.

I don't see an effective 3 point penalty to a D20 roll (while sacrificing all your damage) being worth a level one spell slot. In comparison, Shield gives a 5 point penalty to multiple potential rolls, and extra goodies on top of that.

However, with a 20 in your starting stat, you're looking at a DC 15, which I would argue is easily worth it. That's the equivalent of a concentration check triggered by 30 damage. I certainly wouldn't want to go higher than that at level 1.

You can't just look at the average when balancing an effect; you also need to examine the maximized effect. Not everyone uses the array. If you roll an 18 and take a race that grants a +2 (or variant human and a feat that grants +1) you can start with a 20.

A DC 13 is a bit meh, but it isn't entirely worthless either. Just unreliable (as is the case for a lot of spells when your DC is that low). That said, outside of a high magic campaign where encountering casters is commonplace, this sort of spell is the kind of thing that most players probably won't pick at 1st level. It's too specialized in it's application. It's the kind of thing you bring in a few levels later when your 1st level slots are becoming more useful for utility than direct application.


Regarding counterspell alternatives, what about a spell that imposes disadvantage on concentration checks? Maybe call it something like Absentmind.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The lowest any damage based concentration check can go is 10. At level 1, with a 16 in your primary stat, your save DC is 13.

I don't see an effective 3 point penalty to a D20 roll (while sacrificing all your damage) being worth a level one spell slot. In comparison, Shield gives a 5 point penalty to multiple potential rolls, and extra goodies on top of that.

I’d not mess with the complexity of making it “spell save DC+X”, so I’d instead consider making it backfire on them if they fail, so they also take damage?

IDK I’d definitely learn a level 1 spell that lets me force a Concentration Save equal to my spell save dc as a reaction, and if they fail they lose the spell they’re trying to cast while still spending the spell slot. There will be times where a defensive spell is better, and times where no defensive spell would be useful at all but this would.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

However, with a 20 in your starting stat, you're looking at a DC 15, which I would argue is easily worth it. That's the equivalent of a concentration check triggered by 30 damage. I certainly wouldn't want to go higher than that at level 1.

You can't just look at the average when balancing an effect; you also need to examine the maximized effect. Not everyone uses the array. If you roll an 18 and take a race that grants a +2 (or variant human and a feat that grants +1) you can start with a 20.

A DC 13 is a bit meh, but it isn't entirely worthless either. Just unreliable (as is the case for a lot of spells when your DC is that low). That said, outside of a high magic campaign where encountering casters is commonplace, this sort of spell is the kind of thing that most players probably won't pick at 1st level. It's too specialized in it's application. It's the kind of thing you bring in a few levels later when your 1st level slots are becoming more useful for utility than direct application.


Regarding counterspell alternatives, what about a spell that imposes disadvantage on concentration checks? Maybe call it something like Absentmind.

I agree with all that, and I love Absentmind!

What do you think the level would be if it doesn’t require concentration to maintain, and lasts a minute?

 

[Fanaelialae]

I agree with all that, and I love Absentmind!

What do you think the level would be if it doesn’t require concentration to maintain, and lasts a minute?

My gut says probably 2nd level. It's kind of like a weaker, specialized version of Bestow Curse, if I'm remembering correctly. AFB ATM.