Level Up (A5E) Counterspell wording

[Rune]

Well, my bigger point is that by always limiting the follow-up spell to cantrips, the caster still gets a consolation prize, but can't cast a nearly arbitrary alternate spell that might similar enough to the original spell to make the counterspell effectively meaningless (such as my plane shift vs. dimensions door example). There's also precedence for giving out extra cantrips per round (e.g. quickened spell), so it's a less-drastic exchange.

But the reason I agree a cantrip shouldn't get a second chance isn't the power level of the cantrip, but rather the cost to the counterspeller. If the counterspeller spends a 3d level (or higher slot) and their reaction to cancel a firebolt, it'd be really disappointing (and frankly unfair) for the original caster to just return with a ray of frost.

So a spellcaster without cantrips would just be out of luck? (Not sure if there are any A5e casters without cantrips, but there are certainly multiple ways to get there in O5e – and these rules are supposed to be modular, right?)

Edit to add: Also, the spell as written allows a countered healing spell to be replaced with a lesser one in a critical situation (a good thing). Not so if it only allows cantrips as replacements (unless there’s an A5e cantrip that heals – I haven’t really had a chance to delve far into these books, but I’m guessing no?).

 

[Legendweaver]

In core O5E, I think the only options without cantrips are Paladins and Rangers, right? Both of which have them in A5E...

But honestly, yes, if there's a class without cantrips I think that's an acceptable price to pay. The narrative and tactical cost of removing the game's only hard-counter to various "strategic" spells such as teleports seems very high to me.

Regarding heal, there are a lot of ways to recover from a failed heal (up to and including death saves and resurrection magic). But I cannot think of other hard counters for strategic spells beyond counterspell.

 

[Legendweaver]

One more thought - what about adding a rare version of "counterspell" with the original A5E wording, but using my cantrip wording by default? Or alternately, add a rare version with the O5E wording, since the design team took this approach with other, less sweeping decisions (like fireball).

 

[Mike Myler]

For counterspell, I'm a little unclear about how the target's Reaction option works.

"The creature can use its reaction to try to reshape the fraying magic and cast another spell with the same casting time so long as it uses a spell slot level equal to or less than half the original spell slot."​

There are two ways I can see that being read.

1. You salvage the spell slot you were using to cast the original spell, and cast a replacement spell of a level equal to half that spell's level or lower, still using the same slot, but it's treated as though it were cast using the lower-level slot.
2. You lose the slot, there's no salvaging it, but if you burn your reaction you at least get to do something on your turn - casting a spell using a lower-level slot. So you've lost two spell slots and a reaction, but at least you did something.

Which of these is correct?

Also, can you use the reaction to cast a cantrip? They're lower-level, but they don't use spell slots.

1! The spell slot is expended when a character casts a spell --> counterspell --> reaction to try to capture some of the expended spell slot --> spell of 1/2 level or lower.

The Narrator can decide otherwise, but RAW a cantrip doesn't use a spell slot so it can't be cast using a reaction to a spell successfully stopped by counterspell.

 

[MarkB]

1! The spell slot is expended when a character casts a spell --> counterspell --> reaction to try to capture some of the expended spell slot --> spell of 1/2 level or lower.

So, the intention is that they're recapturing some of the power of that dissipating spell slot in order to power the lower-level replacement spell - they don't have to expend a new spell slot in order to use the reaction?

The Narrator can decide otherwise, but RAW a cantrip doesn't use a spell slot so it can't be cast using a reaction to a spell successfully stopped by counterspell.

That makes sense to me - while cantrips are generally of lower power than other spells, they do scale with character level rather than spell slot level, so being able to use one would negate some of the impact of the lower level restriction. And it does mean that if the counterspell's target was casting a cantrip or a 1st-level spell, they won't get to use the reaction - a reasonable recompense to the opponent for having expended a counterspell against such a relatively weak spell effect.

 

[ElliottBalding]

The way I see it is that you don't use a new spell slot. That recaptured magic is part of the same that you just used, it's just now half as powerful so you need to use a spell slot of half what it was before

 

[Mike Myler]

So, the intention is that they're recapturing some of the power of that dissipating spell slot in order to power the lower-level replacement spell - they don't have to expend a new spell slot in order to use the reaction?

That makes sense to me - while cantrips are generally of lower power than other spells, they do scale with character level rather than spell slot level, so being able to use one would negate some of the impact of the lower level restriction. And it does mean that if the counterspell's target was casting a cantrip or a 1st-level spell, they won't get to use the reaction - a reasonable recompense to the opponent for having expended a counterspell against such a relatively weak spell effect.

Correct - no new slot. If the caster was using a new spell slot, there wouldn't be any capturing of frayed magical essence they'd just kick more out there.

Ah snap somebody beat me to it again!