Counterspells

[asnys]

Hello. This is my first time posting here, and though it is traditional for first-time posters to ask for gentleness, I think I can take a little constructive criticism.

The counterspell mechanics are close to, if not the, most underused part of the D&D magic system-I cannot personally recall ever hearing them even referred to in a game, let alone used. I wrote these up to try to remedy that.

I am really not sure just how powerful this mechanic would be. Any criticism would be appreciated.

Counterspell Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Immediate Action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions as the counterspell version of dispel magic, except that it may be cast as an immediate action when another caster begins casting a spell, without having readied an action. In addition, the spell is only effective against spells of 6th level or lower.
The caster must be aware of the spell being cast, not be flat-footed or surprised, and have line-of-sight on the target.
The decision to cast counterspell must be made as the targeted spell is being cast. The spellcaster may not realize what the spell is; he or she may make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level) to determine what the spell being cast is as a free action. If the spellcaster fails in the Spellcraft check but rolls DC 15 or over, they do not know what spell is being cast, but they do know what level that spell is (and thus whether or not counterspell would be effective against it). It is not necessary that the caster realize what spell is being countered to cast counterspell.

Greater Counterspell Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 6

As Counterspell, except it may counter any spell without restriction, and the maximum caster level bonus to the dispel check is increased to +20.

Major Counterspell Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

As Counterspell, except that it automatically counters without the need for a dispel check, and has increased range.

 

[Cabral]

Just off the top of my head, I would change it to an immediate action instead of a free action.

 

[asnys]

Just off the top of my head, I would change it to an immediate action instead of a free action.

Heh-I never actually upgraded to 3.5E, so the idea of an immediate action is a new one to me. But yeah, in 3.5-speak, it would be an immediate action.

 

[SamuraiY]

Hmm...Doesn;t look too bad. I might tone it down a bit though. Maybe make it work on spells of lower level instead of lower or equal level? Of course if You did that I'd suggest bumping Major Counterspell up to level 9.

 

[helium3]

You could also just modify dispel and greater dispel to allow it to function in the manner of a counterspell as an immediate action. Of course, you'd also have to stipulate that it only worked in that manner for counterspelling. You still can't cast dispel magic on an ongoing effect unless it's your turn.

 

[Cabral]

After a more indepth look, I would say use the dispel magic counterspell mechanics (counters spell if dispel check is successful. d20+CL(max+10) vs DC 11+CL of target) as is and just make it a free (3.0) / immediate (3.5) action. After all, you already giving up most of the dispel magic uses, it should compensate for the change in casting time as long as you limit how often you cast it in a round.

Then for Greater Counterspell, make the cap +20

As long as you restrict the use of counterspell as per the immediate action rules, I would say these spells could even merit a bonus on the dispel check (maybe +5 for Counterspell and +10 for Greater Counterspell)

For Major Counterspell, you could:
a) make the check automatic
b) Give the spell a duration and allow one greater counterspell per turn
c) add some other short term diruption of magic effect to the target (will negates)

 

[asnys]

After a more indepth look, I would say use the dispel magic counterspell mechanics (counters spell if dispel check is successful. d20+CL(max+10) vs DC 11+CL of target) as is and just make it a free (3.0) / immediate (3.5) action. After all, you already giving up most of the dispel magic uses, it should compensate for the change in casting time as long as you limit how often you cast it in a round.

The trouble is, that would mean a 3rd-level spell could take out 9th-level. I am not sure if that would be balanced or not, but I would rather end up underpowered then over.

Then for Greater Counterspell, make the cap +20

As long as you restrict the use of counterspell as per the immediate action rules, I would say these spells could even merit a bonus on the dispel check (maybe +5 for Counterspell and +10 for Greater Counterspell)

For Major Counterspell, you could:
a) make the check automatic
b) Give the spell a duration and allow one greater counterspell per turn
c) add some other short term diruption of magic effect to the target (will negates)

I do like the idea of a bonus on the dispel check, at least for higher-level versions of counterspell against lower-level spells. For example, maybe Major Counterspell has to make a CL check against 4th through 8th-level spells, but automatically counters 0th through 3rd?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Jack Simth]

The trouble is, that would mean a 3rd-level spell could take out 9th-level. I am not sure if that would be balanced or not, but I would rather end up underpowered then over.

Roughly 15% of the time, assuming it was cast at minimum caster level (17th). Not usually worth expending an immediate action. The Greater version would always have a 50/50 chance of taking down a spell cast by an equal Caster level, due to the way the DC's work, up to Caster level 20th (degrading by 5% per level above that, with the +20 cap). Leaving the 8th level version uncapped would mean that it always has the 50/50 chance of counterspelling an equal caster level.

 

[Sravoff]

looks good, as I too see counterspelling being the most wasted mechanic in the game. Never once has a villain or hero used it. Maybe they will now....

Looks good!

-Sravoff

 

[Cheiromancer]

Why not a free action to cast counterspell? That way you could counter more than one spell in a round if you wanted to.

 

[Jack Simth]

Free action: your turn only; requires a readied action.

Immediate action: anywhere in the initiative, but only once per round, and you can't do certain other things the turn after you've made an immediate action.

Besides - do you really want a Sorceror with this spell line to be able to almost totally shut down multiple opposing spellcasters while still actively casting?

 

[Sravoff]

On second thought...... Perhaps make the spell a first level spell that counters a spell tat is one or more spell levels lower than it. Thus making the heighten spell a must.

This would also limit sorcers abuse, as they would be able to use it a bit much in my opinion. However, they can still counter cantrips, and they can ready actions to counter, and use the sudden heighten feat from complete arcane.

-edit-

Besides - do you really want a Sorceror with this spell line to be able to almost totally shut down multiple opposing spellcasters while still actively casting?

Right. :wink:
-/edit-
Just some food for thought.

-Sravoff

 

[Cabral]

The trouble is, that would mean a 3rd-level spell could take out 9th-level. I am not sure if that would be balanced or not, but I would rather end up underpowered then over.

Dispel Magic can take out a 9th level spell ... and it's more versatile about when it can do it.

I do like the idea of a bonus on the dispel check, at least for higher-level versions of counterspell against lower-level spells. For example, maybe Major Counterspell has to make a CL check against 4th through 8th-level spells, but automatically counters 0th through 3rd?

Thanks for the help.

Now that ithink about it even more ... Isn't there an improved counterspelling ability or feat where you can counter a spell with any spell of the same level? These spells could potentially diminish its value.

 

[Sravoff]

counter spell with same school instead of exact same spell. 3.5 PHB.

 

[asnys]

Dispel Magic can take out a 9th level spell ... and it's more versatile about when it can do it.

True... Alright, you have convinced me. I think I will still cap the spell level Counterspell can counter to 6th, though.
Also, think there would be any problem with upping the range of the spell to long?

Now that ithink about it even more ... Isn't there an improved counterspelling ability or feat where you can counter a spell with any spell of the same level? These spells could potentially diminish its value.

Yes, as Sravoff pointed out, but Improved Counterspell is an automatic success. Major Counterspell would tread on its toes a little, but an 8th level spell should be pretty powerful anyway.

 

[RangerWickett]

For the record, the only thing you need to up the usage of counterspells in your game is to have an NPC do it a few times. In one of my most successful campaigns, the first major encounter the 5th-level party had was against six 3rd-level knights and a 7th-level wizard who just held back and either counterspelled or reflected the PCs' spells.

True, I created some custom counterspells for that setting, including Overmaster, which let you take control of another's spell and retarget it. And the villainous organization had a huge 'we counterspell' thing going. But eventually the PCs wised to it, and asked how they could counterspell more. I let them take the Reactive Counterspell feat, modified from Forgotten Realms.

Basically, the FR version lets a spellcaster respond to any spell being cast by casting a counterspell of his own (Dispel Magic, or a direct counter), but in exchange he gives up his action for the next round. It had as prereqs Improved Init and Improved Counterspell. I required neither prereq, because I wanted counterspelling to play a major role in the game. I also let spellcasters use it for 'soft counters' -- things like hold person or silence that could stop a spell from being cast, but not necessarily be a counterspell.

Not everyone took it even then, because few of the spellcasters were built to be effective counterspellers. I figured that proved it was balanced. Fun game, it was.

 

[Stalker0]

Dispel Magic can take out a 9th level spell ... and it's more versatile about when it can do it.

Fireball can take out a 9th level spell, and its much better at it

You ready an action to throw your fireball when the guy casts. If you hit and he fails, that's an average of 35 damage on the caster. So...thats a 45 concentration check, which is hard even for a 20th level mage.

If you want to make counterspelling useful over other options the caster has, you HAVE to do one of the following:

1) Take away its cost, either in actions or in spell slots. It needs to be a free action, not costing any time to do. Or, it spends no spell slots when its used. A counterspeller can waste an opponent's spell while not hurting his own (this becomes nice for a high level caster to block a lower level one and save his strength for bigger fights).

2) Counterspelling can effect more powerful spells than the spellcaster can cast, and by effect I mean fairly consistently. If I'm going to be spending my actions and my spell slots when I could have been fireballing or feebleminding or summoning I had better get some bang for my buck.



If you want an example here's how Arcana Evolved does it. Counterspelling requires a feat, but its a lot more useful. You can ready to counterspell if a spell is cast (you don't have to target a specific person). When the spell is cast its an opposed caster check. You don't have to match a specific spell, you don't even have to identify the spell that's being cast. And...you lose no spell magic when you counterspell. Even further, there's a 3rd level spell that's lets you bump your caster level checks for 1 round/level...allowing a weaker caster to consistently counterspell a stronger on if he's got that buff on.