Coup de Grace broken?

[Pielorinho]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de Grace broken?

When you rules lawyer it is a good idea to know basic math.

Basic manners don't hurt, either.

My basic math is fine, thanks for asking. Would someone care to quote the passage that talks about minimum damage?

Daniel

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de Grace broken?

Hmm...I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure i see why you put the parentheses where you do. You state that the damage should be calculated as

[(1d3-4)+(1d3-4)] = 2

But why not calculate it as
(1d3 - 4 + 1d3 - 4) = 1?

Because the second is not "rolling the damage with all modifiers two, three, or four times and then adding the results together". It is "rolling the damage twice and then applying the modifiers multiplied by two".

The sequence described by the text of the SRD is this (for a x2 critical weapon): (a) roll the damage, with modifiers, (b) roll the damage a second time, with modifiers, and (c) add the results from (a) and (b) together.

 

[Pielorinho]

Minimum Weapon Damage
If penalties to damage bring the damage result below 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.

Critical Hits

A critical hit means that the attacker rolls for damage more than once, as indicated by the weapon description for the weapon that scored the threat, with all the attacker's usual bonuses, and add the rolls together to get total damage.

The question is, does minimum damage apply to each "roll for damage", or to "total damage"? I'd apply it to the total, not to each roll for damage.

Daniel

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de Grace broken?

[(1d3-4)+(1d3-4)] = 2

But why not calculate it as
(1d3 - 4 + 1d3 - 4) = 1?

Because that would mean it's not a x2 Critical.

Excluding extra dice of damage, the average damage of a x2 Critical should be twice the average damage of a normal attack. The average damage of a x3 Critical should be three times.

-Hyp.

 

[Drawmack]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de Grace broken?

Basic manners don't hurt, either.

My basic math is fine, thanks for asking. Would someone care to quote the passage that talks about minimum damage?

Daniel

Minimum Weapon Damage
If penalties to damage bring the damage result below 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.

as stated above

When a critical hit is scored, roll the damage with all modifiers two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier, and add all the results together.

Taking these two rules together here is how a critical plays out.

Roll the die x times and write down the modified total to a minimum of 1 point of damage from each roll.

 

[Pielorinho]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de Grace broken?

Because the second is not "rolling the damage with all modifiers two, three, or four times and then adding the results together". It is "rolling the damage twice and then applying the modifiers multiplied by two".

That makes sense -- thanks! I do still think that minimum damage should apply to total damage from "a hit," not to total damage per time you roll damage.

I also want to point out that when we're seriously arguing about the damage inflicted by a critical rat-bite, we've officially become rules-Nazis. This is the kind of thing that White-Wolfers love to mock us for.

Daniel

 

[Storm Raven]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de Grace broken?

My basic math is fine, thanks for asking. Would someone care to quote the passage that talks about minimum damage?

For more clarification, from the SRD:

A critical hit means that the attacker rolls for damage more than once, as indicated by the weapon description for the weapon that scored the threat, with all the attacker's usual bonuses, and add the rolls together to get total damage.

Coupled with:

If penalties to damage bring the damage result below 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage.

Yields this result. The sequence is (a) roll for damage, with all usual bonuses, (b) roll for damage again, with all usual bonuses, and (c) add the results. When you roll for damage, if your penalties reduce your attack to less than one, you still deal 1 point of damage.

So, the rat would roll 1d3-4, and find that his damage was less than 1, and adjust it to 1 (since that is a normal adjustment to damage). Then he would roll the second time, and go through the same process. Then he would add the results together to get 2 damage on a critical hit.

 

[Storm Raven]

The question is, does minimum damage apply to each "roll for damage", or to "total damage"? I'd apply it to the total, not to each roll for damage.

Note this language:

A critical hit means that the attacker rolls for damage more than once

 

[Pielorinho]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Coup de Grace broken?

Hypersmurf, that's a good argument, and I'll buy that: a critical hit oughtta be worse than a normal hit. I don't buy the idea that you should adjust after each roll, because the "minimum damage" rule just tells you what the minimum damage is for "a hit," not for "a damage result." A critical hit doesn't represent two hits, just an extra-hard hit.

But since a critical ought to be worse than a normal hit, I'll allow it to be a minimum of one times the crit multiplier.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

NOw that we've got consensus on that point, Tom, do you care to respond to any of the points raised so far about CdG? Specifically, do you think YOU wouldn't die if a little man with a twelve-inch spear stabbed YOU in the jugular?

Daniel