coup de grace too powerful

[Dreaddisease]

In the campaign I have been playing in, my character was Charmed and then held by our Sorcerer. Well having been charmed I was right by the enemy Demon. The battle was going bad for the demon and he decided to take off, but the round before he stepped back 5 feet and coup de graced the hell out of my character. I ended up with a Fort save of 40 (high rolling doubled).

I guess my problem is that compared to a Assasin's Death Attack where the Assasin has to study a victim for 3 rounds and that victim can't feel threatened by the assasin this one round coup de grace just blows it out of the water. All you have to is have a poison or a drug that puts the victim to sleep or knocks him/her unconscious and coup de grace him/her... walla, your an assasin without the title.

If I were to house rule this I would do a 2 round study uninterrupted. Oh and another thing. You can provoke an attack of opportunity, but still make the blow. How is that balanced? One extra attack on you for certain death... hmmm trade offs.

Is there any errata on this?

 

[hong]

The point of a coup de grace is to kill someone without all that hassle of running down their hit points. If you don't want to be CDG'ed, don't get put into a position where you can be CDG'ed.

Your real issue is with the power of the hold person spell, which (in some circumstances) can be an insta-kill spell at 2nd level.

 

[kreynolds]

Coup de Grace is just fine as is. It just sucks to be on the receiving end.

 

[bensei]

Even though it is always said that one should not care too much about if the rules present reality, I think a CDG reflects reality pretty well.
If you stand close to a helpless victim, it is not hard to kill him, if you take the time to perform a leathal blow (thus it is a full round action).

Actually, I find CDG a very interesting rule. Firstly because we play with a fixed HP rule, thus 1st level characters have about 16 to 24 HPs. So Sleep and CDG is a very nice combination against lots of 1st level characters. Secondly because we already had the very interesting situation that our front barabarian was 'held person' by an enemy cleric and we had to try to protect him (fortunately we had a caster who could successfully cast dispel magic).
CDG is a non-spell action that makes combat more than just 'reduce enemy HP as quickly as possible'.

 

[Aaron2]

In the campaign I have been playing in, my character was Charmed and then held by our Sorcerer.

Why did the Sorcerer Hold you? Since you're charmed you're pretty much out of the fight anyway. Charmed characters can't really be made to attack their former friends.

Well having been charmed I was right by the enemy Demon. The battle was going bad for the demon and he decided to take off, but the round before he stepped back 5 feet and coup de graced the hell out of my character. I ended up with a Fort save of 40 (high rolling doubled).

If the Demon was losing the fight so badly, how did it survive the full round needed to CDG you? You friends couldn't grapple or stun or hold him?


Aaron

 

[Jeremy]

Is Coup-De-Grace one of those special full round action things like full round castings where the actual cdg doesn't occur until just before your init next round?

Or does it take the same amount of time as a full attack action?

Cause if it's the second, how does someone have the time to interrupt or stop it?

And if it's the first, isn't full round action the wrong term for it? Cause that's a term that specifically describes spontaneous cast metamagicked spells, whirlwind attacks, full round attacks, etc. Things where you do the action right then, but only have a 5 ft step as opposed to a normal move action (or move equivalent action) left....

Clarifications?

 

[kreynolds]

how does someone have the time to interrupt or stop it?

You can't interrupt it, short of actually killing them with an AoO before the CdG hits the helpless victim. Thus, it is not like a full-round spell. That would be the nut-shell answer.

 

[Dreaddisease]

There are plenty of ways to prevent people from attacking each other. Especially with a Rope of Climbing and a +23 to a Use Rope Skill. Charm person means you favor the person with the spell effect on you more than the other.

Maybe I have a problem with insta-kill in the middle of a normal combat round. You have to roll to see if you can hit a normal target, even a non moving target, but not when you focus the full round on that target who can't move. 6 Seconds is not enough time to get a nice kill.

Also please debate why an Assasin gets a special skill that makes him focus 3 rounds and everyone gets a coup de grace that is only 1 round.

To debate the point of true to life, how can you be in the middle of a battle with opponents still alive and still attacking you to focus that one little attack in a person's eye or in their throat?

Lastly the Demon had mirror image up so he had a good chance of not being hit every time.

As to the person who says not to get into a position where you can get in one. Your right, my character should stay home and farm.

 

[hong]

Maybe I have a problem with insta-kill in the middle of a normal combat round. You have to roll to see if you can hit a normal target, even a non moving target, but not when you focus the full round on that target who can't move. 6 Seconds is not enough time to get a nice kill.

I can guarantee you that if you're nice and asleep in your bed, and someone comes up with a meat cleaver, it won't take them 6 seconds to kill you. The same principle applies even in the middle of a combat.

Also please debate why an Assasin gets a special skill that makes him focus 3 rounds and everyone gets a coup de grace that is only 1 round.

Because the assassin can do it even on non-helpless targets.

To debate the point of true to life, how can you be in the middle of a battle with opponents still alive and still attacking you to focus that one little attack in a person's eye or in their throat?

Easily enough, if you're willing to give them a chance to hit you back. That's the reason for the AoO that a coup de grace provokes.

Lastly the Demon had mirror image up so he had a good chance of not being hit every time.

... and hence it's quite reasonable that the demon would be quite willing to give people a chance to hit him back.

As to the person who says not to get into a position where you can get in one. Your right, my character should stay home and farm.

It looks like your character has already bought the farm, so this would also be quite reasonable.

 

[Pyske]

Is Coup-De-Grace one of those special full round action things like full round castings where the actual cdg doesn't occur until just before your init next round?

That's the way I always played it, but looking it up in the SRD does not seem to spell this out.

Otherwise, I guess you're screwed, unless he provoked an AoO. If he had, I'd personally choose Bull Rush as the AoO in hopes of getting him far enough away to avoid the CDG.

. . . . . . . -- Eric