coup de grace too powerful

[Henry]

Respectfully, I don't recall the saves in 1E being anything like this. A high level fighter had a good chance to save against the Spells or Paralyzation column. In 3E, a Will save is pretty much cruddy all the way to 20th for the hapless fighter.

Warriors
0 16 18 17 20 19
1-2 14 16 15 17 17
3-4 13 15 14 16 16
5-6 11 13 12 13 14
7-8 10 12 11 12 13
9-10 8 10 9 9 11
11-12 7 9 8 8 10
13-14 5 7 6 5 8
15-16 4 6 5 4 7
17+ 3 5 4 4 6

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

the last column is the spells column, and it is what would apply for hold person. The paralyze column (the first one) would apply to things like ghoul touch, poison, and a bodak's gaze.

You see how much 3E has crept into our thinking over the past two years? The original saving throw table was a mess, by the time all the expansions and extra rules came along. God, I love 3E.

 

[Spatula]

Command and Hold Person also have a Save DC of 11 and 12 (plus modifiers) so it's easier to make the Saving Throw. Yes, they are powerful, but they are just as powerful as in the past editions.

Less powerful, in some cases. Hold Person used to last tens of minutes instead of a few rounds, could target multiple enemies, and had major save penalties if it only targeted one enemy. Sleep (IIRC) did not allow a saving throw. And so on.

And barring major min-maxing on the caster's part, it's been my opinion that spells are easier to save against in 3E at lower character levels.

Spatula

 

[Spatula]

the last column is the spells column, and it is what would apply for hold person. The paralyze column (the first one) would apply to things like ghoul touch, poison, and a bodak's gaze.

Why wouldn't you use PPDm (Paralyzation, Poison, & Death Magic) for Hold Person? Your save vs Spells was only used if none of the other categories applied. And Hold Person paralyzes its targets.

The original saving throw table was a mess.

And I am glad it is gone.

 

[Gromm]

But it was a spell. All spells used the save vs spells.
All wands,staves, rods used save vs wands.

IIRC

Its been a LOOOOONG time since I read the 1e description of Hold Person. But it was worse since it hit 1 target/lvl (or was it 1d4+1 targets?) or gave a -4 to the save against 1 target.

 

[mzsylver]

I can't think of any spellcaster worth their salt that DO NOT have the DC bumped up a lot higher than this. High stats, Spell Prodigy, Heighten Feat, Spell Focus, etc, etc....

Look at a high level fighter's Will save progression. It's laughable. Most spellcaster's can OWN them with Will spells. Hold Person is just one of them.

Again, sorry if I am going off topic here. Just needed to get this off my chest!

one thing on the Bestow Curse versus Hold Person... a lot of fighters will have things that prevent Hold Person (ie. Ring of Freedom of Movement). i cant think of anything that counters Bestow Curse other than a Ring of Counterspelling (and who would put a Bestow Curse in that!)

 

[bensei]

Is Bestow Curse a useful spell in combat?
Isn't it a touch spell?

If you want Enchantments, take a well formulated 'Suggestion' or Dominate Person'. Do not take the fighter out of the battle, let him fight for you!

 

[IceBear]

Less powerful, in some cases. Hold Person used to last tens of minutes instead of a few rounds, could target multiple enemies, and had major save penalties if it only targeted one enemy. Sleep (IIRC) did not allow a saving throw. And so on.

And barring major min-maxing on the caster's part, it's been my opinion that spells are easier to save against in 3E at lower character levels.

Spatula

Yeah, I was just trying to keep my post short

If I remember correctly Hold Person lasted longer in 2nd Edition and could affect up to 4 people (but if you went after 1 he had a -4 penalty on the save, so if we were to compare apples and oranges the 2nd Edition version cast on a figther was even more likely to work).

Anyway, I was just trying to point out that Hold Person being a powerful spell for its level isn't anything new. Sure, we didn't have CdG in 2nd Edition, so it adds a wrinkle. But, as I pointed out, if the fighter is held under most circumstances it would be tactically better for the enemy to focus on the remaining PCs than to waste a round killing off one that isn't going to hurt him for awhile. Kill the rest and THEN CdG him. Again, speaking in generalities here, but that's seems most logical to me.

IceBear

 

[Al]

Bestow Curse can be used as a combat spell, but it's more useful as a Roleplaying/long-term type spell (note the duration). You may wish to punish an evil wizard by Cursing his intelligence so never again can he use his spells; Holding him isn't exactly going to stop him for very long (2 minutes at top-level)