coup de grace too powerful

[Larcen]

... Your real issue is with the power of the hold person spell, which (in some circumstances) can be an insta-kill spell at 2nd level.

Hold Person isn't very unbalancing.

In mid to higher levels, Saving throws will often prove the Hold Person's undoing. The DC's don't raise that high, because it's 2nd level.

In lower levels, Sleep does just about the same thing. Drop a sleep, CDG. Boom.

The only time Hold Person is really nasty is when something's flying.

Having been using Commands and Hold Person now for some time, I can tell you they ARE way too powerful for 1st and 2nd level.

Here is an easy way to compare, look at all the other higher-level spells that require a Will save and you will see that they generally no NOT take the victim out of the battle, just weaken them.

For example, Bestow Curse. What would you rather you do against someone in a battle; give them penalties or take them out of the fight completely? Both require a Will save.

And I have also noticed that Will is a tough save for a lot of things so even though Hold Person is only 2nd level, it's still difficult to overcome. YMMV.

...It looks like your character has already bought the farm, so this would also be quite reasonable.

LOL!

 

[Larcen]

... 6 Seconds is not enough time to get a nice kill.

While I disagree that 6 seconds is not enough time to get a nice kill, my 1E upbringing IS having a hard time getting used to the short combat rounds.

The 6 second time limit is really noticable whenever you want to do something as simple as communicate with your team members. Our DM is very strict about this. Short sentences only. Realistic, sure, but it makes for quiet battles. I prefer the old 3 Musketeer-like conversations we used to have in melee...

Say, how did I get off on THIS tangent??

 

[IceBear]

Command and Hold Person also have a Save DC of 11 and 12 (plus modifiers) so it's easier to make the Saving Throw. Yes, they are powerful, but they are just as powerful as in the past editions. Again, good teamwork will help the helpess PCs survive.

IceBear

 

[Larcen]

Command and Hold Person also have a Save DC of 11 and 12 (plus modifiers) so it's easier to make the Saving Throw. Yes, they are powerful, but they are just as powerful as in the past editions. Again, good teamwork will help the helpess PCs survive.

IceBear

I can't think of any spellcaster worth their salt that DO NOT have the DC bumped up a lot higher than this. High stats, Spell Prodigy, Heighten Feat, Spell Focus, etc, etc....

Look at a high level fighter's Will save progression. It's laughable. Most spellcaster's can OWN them with Will spells. Hold Person is just one of them.

Again, sorry if I am going off topic here. Just needed to get this off my chest!

 

[IceBear]

It's been the same since 1st Edition and it's been talked about on these boards in the past. Again, the impact of these spells are lessened by good party tactics.

Also, there are spells geared towards every PC. Want to hurt a wizard, use a Fort spell. It's all about tactics and using the spell that will hurt their opponent the most. Yes, that means hold person is an excellent spell against fighters, but it always has been.

IceBear

 

[Larcen]

It's been the same since 1st Edition and it's been talked about on these boards in the past. Again, the impact of these spells are lessened by good party tactics.

Also, there are spells geared towards every PC. Want to hurt a wizard, use a Fort spell. It's all about tactics and using the spell that will hurt their opponent the most. Yes, that means hold person is an excellent spell against fighters, but it always has been.

IceBear

Respectfully, I don't recall the saves in 1E being anything like this. A high level fighter had a good chance to save against the Spells or Paralyzation column. In 3E, a Will save is pretty much cruddy all the way to 20th for the hapless fighter.

I do agree about the party tactics being important though, and that everyone seems to have a weakness in 3E, not just fighters.

 

[jontherev]

Respectfully, I don't recall the saves in 1E being anything like this. A high level fighter had a good chance to save against the Spells or Paralyzation column. In 3E, a Will save is pretty much cruddy all the way to 20th for the hapless fighter.

I do agree about the party tactics being important though, and that everyone seems to have a weakness in 3E, not just fighters.

Any fighter worth his salt has Iron Will and hopefully another save booster. With all of those feats, if he's using all of them on offense, he deserves what he gets imo. Barbarians are another story, but that's where good party tactics come in. The Cleric and Wizard realize he's vulnerable and DANGEROUS if charmed...best keep a few dispel magics around.

 

[Henry]

I have the fix: Cast Slow on 'em.

No full actions, only partial. Does anyone know if CDG can be performed as a partial action?

I must admit, though, that being too slow to kill an unmoving opponent is a concept that gives me the giggles.

 

[AuraSeer]

If you're slowed, you can still CDG, but it will take you two rounds. Look for "Start Full Round Action" in the Combat chapter of the PHB (or see the SRD page here)

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Respectfully, I don't recall the saves in 1E being anything like this. A high level fighter had a good chance to save against the Spells or Paralyzation column. In 3E, a Will save is pretty much cruddy all the way to 20th for the hapless fighter.

I do agree about the party tactics being important though, and that everyone seems to have a weakness in 3E, not just fighters.

Fighters did have the best saves at high levels in 1e/2e. Now everyone fails saves at all levels. It is not just a problem for the grunts.

While it is true that spellcasters have a lot of ways of dealing with the hapless grunt who has no teammates looking out for him, the grunts can obliterate an unprotected spellcaster nearly as easily.