Couple psionic feat questions...

[RigaMortus2]

If you were a Psychic Warrior/Monk and had the feats: Psionic Fist, Psionic Weapon, and Psionic Meditation, could you:

1) Lose Psionic Focus to gain Psionic Fist (+2d6 damage to an attack with an unarmed strike).
2) Use Move Action and re-focus your Psionic Focus.
3) Lose Psionic Focus to gain Psionic Weapon (+2d6 damage to attack with a melee weapon, which an unarmed strike is considered)
4) Make a single melee attack, using your unarmed strike, dealing monk's unarmed strike damage +4d6 damage from psionic fist/weapon

???

The follow up question... Would you even need to take both feats? Could you gain Psionic Fist, re-focus your psionic focus (as a move action) and gain Psionic Fist again? Does this type of damage "stack"? The damage appears to be unnamed.

 

[SteelDraco]

I've always assumed that the decision to use these feats (and similar feats that expend your psionic focus) take place as you're making the attack. You don't have time to do anything between the decision to activate it and the actual attack, specifically to prevent this kind of thing. It's also why you can't use Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact at the same time.

If you want, you can take Psicrystal Containment, which allows your crystal to hold a second psionic focus. Then you could do, say, Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact at the same time. I'd say you could use Psionic Weapon and Psionic Fist at the same time, too. It's untyped damage dice, after all. There's no reason it shouldn't stack.

Though for that matter, why does Psionic Fist even exist? Anybody who's going to try and hit someone with their fist is going to be using an unarmed strike as a weapon (with Improved Unarmed Strike). The only person that Psionic Fist benefits is the person who is going to suffer an AoO from trying it anyway.

That aside, I wouldn't ever allow Psionic Weapon to stack with itself, even if you could expend your focus twice on the same attack. It's the same effect, and therefore it should never stack.

 

[Ferrix]

Novel idea...

Let's check out the feats in question.

Psionic Fist [Psionic]

You can charge your unarmed strike or natural weapon with additional damage potential.
Prerequisite Str 13.
Benefit
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Your unarmed strike or attack with a natural weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage.

You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus.

Psionic Weapon [Psionic]

You can charge your melee weapon with additional damage potential.
Prerequisite Str 13.
Benefit
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus.

Your attack with a melee weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus.

So, none of the feats say that you expend your focus while making an attack, but rather that you expend your psionic focus to use this feat.

However, the line "your attack with a melee weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage." This to me means that you can't hold the charge, however the very notion of charging your attack with psionic energy seems to imply that you can charge and then later attack.

Additionally the other example of charging a weapon psionic energy from the XPH is in deep crystal.

While a weapon made of deep crystal is no different from a mundane crystal weapon for a nonpsionic character, a psionic wielder of a deep crystal weapon can focus psionic power through it, increasing the damage that weapon deals. As a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, the wielder can channel psionic power into a melee weapon or ranged weapon made of deep crystal. For 2 power points, the deep crystal weapon deals an extra 2d6 points of damage. The weapon will stay charged for 1 minute or until it scores its next hit. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this power on their ammunition. All missile weapons lose this effect if they miss. However, they may be recovered and charged again.

This specifically mentions holding the charge until the next hit while both psionic fist and psionic weapon do not.

Final answer, I'd say, the above wouldn't work mostly because it doesn't specify that your weapon/fist will stay charged for any length of time. However, it's definately not very clear in the rules and could easily be debated either way.

 

[Someone]

I understand that "prior to making the attack" means just before rolling the die.

 

[Arkhandus]

It says 'prior to making an attack' not 'prior to taking an action' or 'prior to taking a move-equivalent action' or 'any time before making an attack this turn', so I'd have to say that you can only benefit from each of those feats when you activate them IMMEDIATELY before an attack roll. Any other kind of activity after using the feat would violate the clause in the description, thus cancelling the feat's benefit.

Also, I should think that if the feat's intent was to grant a charge that persists until used, the wording would certainly have been more like 'your next attack this turn deals 2d6 extra damage' or 'you deal 2d6 points of bonus damage with your next attack this turn'.

 

[Staffan]

Psionic Weapon specifies that you use it with a melee weapon. An unarmed strike or natural weapon is not considered as such, unless you're a monk. Just as you need magic fang to affect a claw attack, you need Psionic Fist to affect one.

Other than that, I agree with the other posters who say that you expend your focus and activage Psionic fist/weapon as part of making the attack. You can't use your focus twice in the same instant, unless you have some fancy abilities like having a second focus in a psicrystal.

 

[Ferrix]

Psionic Weapon specifies that you use it with a melee weapon. An unarmed strike or natural weapon is not considered as such, unless you're a monk. Just as you need magic fang to affect a claw attack, you need Psionic Fist to affect one.

Other than that, I agree with the other posters who say that you expend your focus and activage Psionic fist/weapon as part of making the attack. You can't use your focus twice in the same instant, unless you have some fancy abilities like having a second focus in a psicrystal.

It is a bit ridiculous that only a monk's unarmed strike is considered a melee weapon while a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike's unarmed strike isn't. Utterly ridiculous and inconsistent. Truly an unarmed strike and natural weapons should always be considered melee weapons.

 

[Staffan]

It is a bit ridiculous that only a monk's unarmed strike is considered a melee weapon while a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike's unarmed strike isn't. Utterly ridiculous and inconsistent. Truly an unarmed strike and natural weapons should always be considered melee weapons.

I find it entirely consistant. Many spells differentiate between creatures and objects. The monk has a special ability that makes his unarmed strike be considered an object in addition to being part of a creature. This is even spelled out in the description of the monk class. The relevant spells also take care to mention the difference (magic weapon says "You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang).")

There are also many psionic powers that differentiate between manufactured weapons and natural attacks: metaphysical claw/metaphysical weapon, prevenom/prevenom weapon, dissolving touch/dissolving weapon, claws of the vampire/vampiric blade, duodimension claw/psionic keen edge, claw of energy/weapon of energy, and truevenom/truevenom weapon. I think it's pretty clear that the intent is to treat natural weapons and manufactured weapons as fundamentally different things.

A monk, however, could use either Psionic Fist or Psionic Weapon to power up his unarmed strike, since that's a special ability of the monk class. The same goes for all the claw/weapon powers above.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Either you guys are readding waaaaaay too much into this, or I am... Prior to making an attack means just that... Before you make an attack. I can make an attack as my first action, and then move... I can move, and then make an attack. With the right feats I can move, then make my attack, and then move again. I can attack and not move at all... In all those situations there is a time to expend the focus before I make the attack, as long as I expend it before then I would think it qualifies.

The wording is a bit vague though. There is no "charge" to be held on these feats. What happens if I expend my focus but decide not to attack? Will I get the +2d6 damage if my next attack happens to be an AoO, or on my next turn? I would think yes since I expended my focus (a) prior to making an attack and (b) I have yet to make an attack until then.

Of course, since there also is no duration listed, you could interpret it to say that once you expend your focus, all attacks gain the +2d6 bonus damage. It never says "your next attack" or "this effect lasts 1 round". Though I agree this is probably wrong and would never play this way.

 

[Soulglow]

What happens if I expend my focus but decide not to attack?

"If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus." If you were allowed to use the feat(s) (and expend your focus) before an attack is made, then this line makes no sense since you would be making your attack without a focus. It's there because you expend your focus with the attack. Logic excludes any use of the feat(s) other than with an attack.