CP2020 - Help with HR after a decade long break

[Primitive Screwhead]

Hey all,
I may be getting back into CP2020, after a break of a really long time. This is due primarily to recently getting into Ghost in the Shell and reading a number of books like Future Wars and Cyberabad....

Anyway, one of the main issues with the game is the reliance on Reflexes as a prime combat stat. Almost everything is based on this.... initiative, melee weapons, and ranged weapons.

Since I don't have any of my old notes and HRs, I thought I would ask here for some help making sure any glaring holes in the rules are covered before I dig back in.. and to ask about the following HR..

In order to remove the reliance on Reflexes, have Inititive linked to Int and firing guns linked to Cool.


Thoughts?
Comments?
...
HellHound?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

...my first thought on seeing you post this was "Shouldn't he listen up?"

Sorry, just had to make the joke about a supplement that I saw but never looked in. Never actually did CP2020, I was a Shadowrun person.

Brad

 

[Filcher]

Yeah, this continues to be a huge problem with the system I love. One of the things we tried was house ruling that you used Cool for ranged weapons. So it didn't matter how fast you were, if you couldn't be ice cold in the moment.

So Ref for Init, Cool to hit. You could use Bod for melee weapons, though I don't think we ever implemented that one.

Where is Hellhound? I know he has the answer for sure.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

...my first thought on seeing you post this was "Shouldn't he listen up?"
Brad

No apology needed.. thats where the screen name comes from!
I used to be a regular on a CP2020 board... back when 'fixing the connection' meant re-seating the phone on the modem


Filcher
Glad to hear I am not too off track. Perhaps even allow players to choose Ref or Bod for melee weapons, depending on the style/weapon used.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

As a player of the original CP, CP2020, and SRs 1-4, one of the things that has been rattling around in my head is how unsatisfying firefights tend to be in modern or cyberpunk RPGs.

In general, firefights are over too quickly. (In RL, an astonishingly low percentage of bullets -- even with trained combatants on both sides -- finds a target, even at close ranges.)

So there are two things that I've decided I'd want to change before GMing these games again:

(1) The chance of hitting a live target in an actual firefight is much, much, much lower than the chance to hit an immobile target.

(2) Morale (e.g., COOL in CP) plays a much, much, much bigger role in a firefight.

For example, in CP I'd just jack the target numbers sky-high to hit any mobile target. To poke your head out from cover while being fired upon would be a COOL check of some difficulty. Actually staying exposed (for example, to actively aim) would be even harder.

It's been a long time since I read or played CP, so I can't give specifics (and I really don't know if the underlying d10 math of the game would make my vague ideas workable), but my overall goal would be to recreate the "oh, f--k, oh, f--k, Jesus Christ!" atmosphere that exists in RL firefights (and the fictional ones I find most interesting).

To answer the OP's original question, I think using COOL instead of REF shows that we likely have similar ideas of how we envision firefights, but I don't think it'll solve much. Firearms monsters in CP tend to max out COOL in addition to REF, and under a system that uses COOL, they certainly will. (There's no "chipped COOL-flexes," I guess, but on the other hand there's cyber-psychosis!)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

As a player of the original CP, CP2020, and SRs 1-4, one of the things that has been rattling around in my head is how unsatisfying firefights tend to be in modern or cyberpunk RPGs.

In general, firefights are over too quickly. (In RL, an astonishingly low percentage of bullets -- even with trained combatants on both sides -- finds a target, even at close ranges.)

So there are two things that I've decided I'd want to change before GMing these games again:

(1) The chance of hitting a live target in an actual firefight is much, much, much lower than the chance to hit an immobile target.

(2) Morale (e.g., COOL in CP) plays a much, much, much bigger role in a firefight.

For example, in CP I'd just jack the target numbers sky-high to hit any mobile target. To poke your head out from cover while being fired upon would be a COOL check of some difficulty. Actually staying exposed (for example, to actively aim) would be even harder.

It's been a long time since I read or played CP, so I can't give specifics (and I really don't know if the underlying d10 math of the game would make my vague ideas workable), but my overall goal would be to recreate the "oh, f--k, oh, f--k, Jesus Christ!" atmosphere that exists in RL firefights (and the fictional ones I find most interesting).

To answer the OP's original question, I think using COOL instead of REF shows that we likely have similar ideas of how we envision firefights, but I don't think it'll solve much. Firearms monsters in CP tend to max out COOL in addition to REF, and under a system that uses COOL, they certainly will. (There's no "chipped COOL-flexes," I guess, but on the other hand there's cyber-psychosis!)

You might have a point. We play a Cyberpunk online campaign, and combats are really fast. One salvo and the enemy is just dead.

We also have a d20 Modern campaign, and it's very different there, because everyone is hiding behind cover. That +4 to AC is frighteningly effective, trying to hit with a +5 modifer against an AC of 19 or higher is hard - and a single hit doesn't even kill your target!

I must admit I find neither solution really satisfying. Missed shots aren't fun, simply said. And I think d20 Modern is a particular bad match for this, since hits aren't as deadly as in Cyberpunk or Shadowrun.

If you go a "simulationist" route, there should be some "threat difficulty" and a "hit difficulty". The "thread difficulty" is a miss, but it causes the enemy to lose his cool and take cover. The "hit difficulty" means an actual hit and has a fair chance of killing someone (and he'll still lose his cool, so it's a great way to put someone effective out of the fight, too.)

A cyberpunk idea (based on my only weak knowledge of the rules, I haven't "mastered" that game yet)
- Regular Hit DCs are "suppressing attack" DCs. If you hit this number, the target is suppressed, but you don't get to deal damage. To hit a target, the DC is 5 points higher.
- A suppressed target cannot leave cover and not make attacks unless it makes a Cool check DC 15. To negate suppression, the target needs to make a Cool check DC 20.
- A suppressed target increases all hit (but not the DC to suppress) DCs by 5 points.

This way, hitting your enemy becomes a lot harder, but stuff still happens.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I kind of like that suppressing fire idea... the one thing that I remember from CP2020 that was an issue was stacking of armor; if you had one of the cyber-implants that boosted your armor, plus an armored t-shirt, plus some other armor you could get armor values into the 40's on certain areas. I'm not sure if that ever got errata'd, but I've seen people decide to use only the highest-value armor and not allowing any stacking.

 

[Dyson Logos]

There is a rule for CP2020 that makes it so the most benefit per layer that you get from stacking armor is +4 SP per layer. So it is a lot more controlled than it was in the first printing.

I'll dig it up...

OOOH! Here's a firearms combat system for CP2020 that uses a percentile system instead of the flat d10, and has a much higher chance of missing - New Firearms Combat Rules

And here's the armor errata (as printed in the second print run of CP2020) - New Armor/Combat Notes

Actually, this whole website is stuffed full of cool house rules - The BlackHammer CyberPunk Project

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I like the concept behind the new firearm rules, but would want to trim it down to something a bit easier to run off the cuff.. both for my peice of mind as well as belaying my players reluctance to play a different system. stat + skill + 1D10 vs DC is alot easier to explain.

I also like the idea of supressive fire, but prefer to give players an option instead of forcing an action.

Perhaps steal some D20isms and split the turn into a move action and an attack action. When they get shot at, they can dive for cover {sacrificing the next move action and decreasing the chances of getting hit} or face it down {Luck check to reduce damage }
With the lethality of damage, diving for cover would be the preferable route.

This also means that combat focus needs to choose between Ref for movement, Cool to hit, Int for going first, Bod for soaking damage, Luck for facing down fire, and Empathy...



.. I will have to think on the details more.. tonight my brain is a bit fried and probably not going straight Time for bed!

 

[Dyson Logos]

"Ref for movement"

What about Movement Allowance for movement? As it stands, you've almost entirely eliminated Ref from the equation at all.