CR calculation

[Tharkon]

This is essentially two-part.

1. What happens if template powers overlap with each other or with a creatures innate power. Does the CR still increase normally?
2. What happens if multiple creatures are together, if I extend the DMG rules it says a creature of CR 24 accompanied by 6 CR 20 creatures is CR 28 and remains CR 28 if I add 2 more CR 20's.

A specific example of the first one is a Leviathan (MM2) with the Water Element template (MotP) added.

The template changes HD from d8 to d10 (reducing hp by 32)
It adds Darkvision 60 ft. and Swim speed 90 ft. which the Leviathan already has.
It adds DR 10/magic which is useless since the Leviathan already has DR 10/-.
It adds Drench, but the use of this is severely reduced by the Leviathan only having a swim speed and thus being restricted to aquatic environments.
Although the same restriction makes Water Mastery a little stronger, and there is the elemental immunities, but is it still increasing the CR from 25 to 27?

For the second problem there are many examples that fit the problem, I was specifically thinking of a Wood Element Master of the Hunt accompanied by several Wood Element Hounds of the Hunt. See MM5 for the base creatures and MotP for the templates.

 

[Tharkon]

Furthermore, if I want to increase the HD of a creature that changes type from a template, in what order do I apply the adjustments.

Like I want to increase the CR of a Magical Beast, changed into an Elemental by a template, by adding 12 HD?

If I add the HD before the template it's +4 but if I do it after it's +3, the resulting creature is the same, so it should have the same CR, right?

 

[Pergentile]

Judge CR personally for every creature. The system sucks as is.
Also, look up the Type Triangle.

 

[Jhaelen]

1. What happens if template powers overlap with each other or with a creatures innate power. Does the CR still increase normally?
2. What happens if multiple creatures are together, if I extend the DMG rules it says a creature of CR 24 accompanied by 6 CR 20 creatures is CR 28 and remains CR 28 if I add 2 more CR 20's.

1. Technically, yes. Personally, I just wouldn't apply such a template.

2. It's usually fine to add additional monsters that don't change the CR. If you have a large group of pcs that can actually be a good idea, in most other cases there's no point since they won't make the encounter more difficult but add to the time it takes to resolve it.

If you want the low-CR minions to have an impact, you'd have to advance them.

 

[Tharkon]

1. Technically, yes. Personally, I just wouldn't apply such a template.

In this case it's essential to the story. There are elemental bosses, and all of them are a large "normal" creature that has been infused with elemental energy, so I wanted to use these element templates for that. In this case it is not a problem if the CR doesn't increase much since the base creature's CR was already higher than those of the other elements.

Judge CR personally for every creature. The system sucks as is.

So I think I might go by that, would a CR increase of 1 justify the change described to the Leviathan above?

...in most other cases there's no point since they won't make the encounter more difficult but add to the time it takes to resolve it.

That's all I needed to know, I was just worried I miscalculated something, but I see lower level minions just don't have much impact since they aren't strong enough to do so. The main reason the minions are there is for flavor. Otherwise I'd have just made the leader stronger.

Also, look up the Type Triangle.

Sounds interesting, any idea where I should start looking for it?

 

[Tharkon]

I got two more questions:

1. When enhancing by HD, when, if ever, is a monster considered epic. And when it is, is it allowed to choose epic feats, and does it instead of it's normal BAB and Base Saving throw progression gain the Epic progressions?

2. Is it possible to reduce a creature's CR in some way?

 

[Pergentile]

"In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add."

The type triangle pretty much just has Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids at the bottom, which can pretty much have any template applied to them. Then the next level up is things like Magical Beasts etc, and at the very top is Outsider, which has almost no templates that can be applied to it. Lets say you start with Humanoid, you can pretty much add any template. If you end up with Monstrous Humanoid, the number of eligible templates drastically reduce. If the creature then changes to Undead, there are fewer templates again that can be applied from this point. I'll try to find it, I think its buried in my D&D bookmarks somewhere. . .

Edit: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060711a

 

[Tharkon]

Edit: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060711ahttp://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060711a

I figured out they're weekly articles and managed to find info trough URL manipulation.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060711a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060718a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060725a
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060801a

I doesn't specify what to do in this specific situation but I'll conclude that since the augmented subtype determines the creature's features, that I should go by that subtype to determine the effect of extra HD. I also wonder if what they say about undead monks would apply to an undead creature that became a magical beast by a template... Would it be Undead (augmented magical beast) or Magical beast (augmented undead)?
If I was completely free to choose I'd make it an Elemental (shadow), because of how shadow is considered an element in my campaign but not sure if that's possible.

 

[Pergentile]

Pretty sure you can't add a template to an Undead to make it a Magical Beast. Most templates that turn something into a Magical Beast must be applied to the bottom of the triangle... as in, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, and mundane animals, etc. You would THEN be able to make it Undead, in which case it would JUST be Undead, no more Magical Beast at all. Could be wrong though, as I STILL haven't found the damned Type Triangle!

 

[Tharkon]

"Shadow" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the "base creature"). The creature's type changes to "magical beast." It otherwise uses all the base creature's statistis and special abilities except as noted below.

I agree it is weird, but that's what's written.
I considered the fact that Manual of the Planes is 3.0 but the 3.5 Update Booklet doesn't touch that part of the template.

Eventually I decided that an incorporeal creature would make a better boss-creature for the shadow element, rending the template useless still, but I can't help but wonder what kind of weird creature it would have otherwise become. Not living, not dead, intelligent but unturnable.