CR calculation

[the Jester]

2. You're mixing up CR (which is for an individual creature) with EL (which is the difficulty of an encounter).

1 CR 28 and 6 CR 20s: You can look at the 6 CR 20s as a single CR 25 for purposes of figuring EL.

CR 28 + CR 25 = EL 28. Basically, the CR 20 guys aren't enough to push it up a level.

If you want to increase the encounter to EL 29, you need eight CR 20 monsters (which you look at as a CR 26; CR 28 + 26 = EL 29).

Hope that helps.

 

[Tharkon]

Could be wrong though, as I STILL haven't found the damned Type Triangle!

It's called the Type Pyramid, found it in Savage Species, page 142:

Construct, Outsider, Undead
Elemental, Ooze, Plant
Aberration
Dragon, Humanoid (shapechanger)
Fey, Giant
Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid
Animal, Humanoid, Vermin

It also lists some extra detail, sort of errata on other templates and funny combinations, like half-celestial archons and half-dragon dragons, which technically are completely valid. But although the half-celestial template does not state living as a requirement, undead and constructs can't change type anymore. Outsiders however don't need to change type to acquire the half-celestial template .

Hmmm, how about a half-elemental, half-celestial, half-dragon, half-fey, half-troll, shadow, monstrous, centipede swarm. No idea how that came into being but there must have been some magic involved.

It goes vermin > magical beast > magical beast > giant > fey > dragon > outsider > outsider.
Half-celestial requires 4 Int, but the -2 from half-troll is countered by +2 from half-dragon so we just need to make sure that the we don't roll four 1's with the monstrous template.

What I don't get though is why the half-troll template specifically mentions outsiders getting the giant (extraplanar) type when inheriting the half-troll template, since the pyramid rules the outsider type can't be overruled. It also allows fey and dragon half-trolls.
​

 

[Pergentile]

The problem with D&D is that is had many different authors, all humans, all capable of making mistakes, and all not totally informed. This creates contradictions in the rules. I personally use the Type Pyramid above everything else, but if rules imply that it can be gotten around, I see no reason why you should not do so.

Giant Outsider (Extraplanar) might also be the end result...

 

[Tharkon]

Giant Outsider (Extraplanar) might also be the end result...

Two types, always interesting.

Technically it would just end up to be an Outsider with Low-light vision though but still having two types is interesting.

The example half-troll barbazu lost it's outsider type as well as its lawful, evil and baatezu subtypes it seems. Yet it's still able to summon other baatezu.

I always keep wondering when you get a half-troll barbazu and when a half-barbazu troll.

 

[RainOfSteel]

I figured out they're weekly articles and managed to find info trough URL manipulation.

You can skip URL manipulation by going online here:

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page

Those four articles are under "Rules of the Game":

Rules of the Game Archive

 

[Aus_Snow]

I have my own system for working this (and ECL, and EL) out, part of which amounts to "eyeball it".

However, to give you an idea of some (more) of the issues involved, the following PDF would be a great place to start: http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/Challenging_Challenge_Ratings_v5.pdf

(warning: that's a direct PDF link - in case you're at work or whatever)

 

[Empirate]

The Savage Species type table is funny, since the very same book introduces Incarnate Construct...
So I'd really love to play a Maug, who is turned into an Incarnate Construct, who goes into Greenstar Adept (and becomes a Construct), and has a high-level caster Incarnate him as an Incarnate Construct AGAIN. Maugs have 2 HD and an LA of +3, while Incarnate Construct lowers your LA by -2. Assuming LA buyoff and timing it right, I could have 22 class levels at ECL 20.


BTW, I also love how the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting allows Hairy Spiders (Vermin) as Familiars - which become Magical Beasts, gain an Int score, but DO NOT lose the 'mindless' trait as far as I can see).

 

[Tharkon]

The Savage Species type table is funny, since the very same book introduces Incarnate Construct...
So I'd really love to play a Maug, who is turned into an Incarnate Construct, who goes into Greenstar Adept (and becomes a Construct), and has a high-level caster Incarnate him as an Incarnate Construct AGAIN. Maugs have 2 HD and an LA of +3, while Incarnate Construct lowers your LA by -2. Assuming LA buyoff and timing it right, I could have 22 class levels at ECL 20.

Level Adjustment can't go below 0. And 22 class levels, 2 racial hit dice and LA +0 would be ECL 24. Although still powerful for a ECL 24, cause of the Maug's strength bonus.

I would expect any DM to use one or more of the following rulings though:

• No creature can be incarnated more than once. (I believe this is an actual rule, since you can't apply the same template to the same creature twice.)
• Green Star Adepts can't be incarnated, the star metal prevents the spell from affecting them.
• Green Star Adepts lose many of their class features when subjected to incarnation since it purges out the star metal.
• Green Star Adepts don't want to be incarnated, it's against their believes.

I would expect such rulings just as DMs are expected to disallow Kensais with unarmed signature weapons to take Vow of Poverty, without either forfeiting Exalted Strike or their signature weapon bonus, which is an example given in the FAQ.
The Incarnate Construct template lists that it loses all Special Attacks and Special Qualities, it does not say class features are excluded. It also says that it has not feats (it doesn't say that it gains no feats).

I wonder if an incarnate construct can be raised. Or if it is still destroyed when at 0 hitpoints. It's a weird template indeed and I understand why the type pyramid normally disallows changes like that.

BTW, I also love how the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting allows Hairy Spiders (Vermin) as Familiars - which become Magical Beasts, gain an Int score, but DO NOT lose the 'mindless' trait as far as I can see).

There are many constructs and undead that have Int scores and are still immune to mind-affecting abilities. The Maug being an example. The only thing Mindless does beside losing the Int score (which is undone) is make them immune to those effects.

I have my own system for working this (and ECL, and EL) out, part of which amounts to "eyeball it".

For EL I can see that, but ECL is pretty much defined by rules. And even though the rules provided are only guidelines I don't see how or why to deviate from ECL rules (ECL=HD+LA), although you could change LA I guess, so the result is the same.

However, to give you an idea of some (more) of the issues involved, the following PDF would be a great place to start: http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/file...Ratings_v5.pdf[/

Looks great, gonna read it in a bit.

 

[Empirate]

By rights, the Mindless trait should also make you undetectable by Mindsight, Detect Thoughts etc. ...

And seriously, Tharkon, nobody would EVER play a character who is incarnated/deconstructed more than once... OR WOULD THEY???

 

[Tharkon]

By rights, the Mindless trait should also make you undetectable by Mindsight, Detect Thoughts etc. ...

Mindsight is stated to affect any creature with an Int score. It uses the word mindless, but although this is the same word it does in no way reference the particular trait that vermin and augmented vermin possess.

Detect Thoughts is a mind-affecting effects, and does not affect (augmented) vermin, constructs or undead (and possibly others) even if they have an Int score.

And seriously, Tharkon, nobody would EVER play a character who is incarnated/deconstructed more than once... OR WOULD THEY???

In that thread they also forget that LA can't go below 0. Which is clearly stated in the Incarnate Construct template. I will try looking for where it says that templates can't be applied more than once to the same creature, but it makes sense to me, and I think I saw it somewhere.

But I agree on the first part, it does not make sense from a roleplaying perspective. And what was D&D again, oh right a roleplaying game.

I'd personally have a Green Star Adept or any class that bases it's class features on becoming a construct lose it's class features if it underwent incarnation or reject the incarnation completely, depending on how the class worked.