CR calculation

[Tharkon]

I also wonder if what they say about undead monks would apply to an undead creature that became a magical beast by a template... Would it be Undead (augmented magical beast) or Magical beast (augmented undead)?
If I was completely free to choose I'd make it an Elemental (shadow), because of how shadow is considered an element in my campaign but not sure if that's possible.

I figured it out by looking at similar cases explained in the FAQ (p31).

If a template says its allowed, it probably is (DMs can always rule it isnt), but in the end you look back at every type the creature possessed at one time, and pick the highest. It's just a name though cause the creature will have the traits of all the types it has trough the augmented subtypes.

So I guess this would be Undead (augmented magical beast), if I had not decided not to use the creature at all.

 

[Aus_Snow]

For EL I can see that, but ECL is pretty much defined by rules. And even though the rules provided are only guidelines I don't see how or why to deviate from ECL rules (ECL=HD+LA), although you could change LA I guess, so the result is the same.

Fair enough. LA would be the relevant bit (that I've mucked around with), true. I guess I should've put it that way.

Mind you, not all HD are equal, and they shouldn't be treated as though they are, so that's another thing. Likewise, I've equalised ECL and CR, so that they mean the same thing. To me, it didn't make sense any other way. YMMV, naturally.

 

[Empirate]

Tharkon, the ideas I brought up belong in the realm of TO anyway. But it's fun to make those thought experiments.
BTW, I know of at least one template that explicitly states it can be applied more than once: Evolved Undead, from Libris Mortis. I guess that would be the exception from an otherwise more or less universal rule, though.

 

[airwalkrr]

The Challenge Rating system is, admittedly by the designers of 3.5, more of an art than a science. They have some guidelines for advancing creatures and creating your own creatures, but these break down over time. Worse still, the monsters in later monster manuals and source books are generally progressively harder the later they were released, as they were playtested against PCs with significantly more (read: better) options than those presented in the original MM.

Also the CR system is completely inadequate for judging challenge for almost all encounters past level 15 or so. Some might argue that level to be as low as 10 or lower. As a DM, as your players advance in level, you have to have even more encounters become of the "tailored" variety and even fewer of the "status quo" variety if you are to have any hope of actually challenging your players. The level of options available to characters after about 10th level becomes quite staggering and the relative power of your PCs depends on too many variables for a system like 3.5 to address consistently to all.

 

[Tharkon]

Tharkon, the ideas I brought up belong in the realm of TO anyway. But it's fun to make those thought experiments.
BTW, I know of at least one template that explicitly states it can be applied more than once: Evolved Undead, from Libris Mortis. I guess that would be the exception from an otherwise more or less universal rule, though.

That template is the exception to confirm the rule indeed.

The Challenge Rating system is, admittedly by the designers of 3.5, more of an art than a science. They have some guidelines for advancing creatures and creating your own creatures, but these break down over time. Worse still, the monsters in later monster manuals and source books are generally progressively harder the later they were released, as they were playtested against PCs with significantly more (read: better) options than those presented in the original MM.

Also the CR system is completely inadequate for judging challenge for almost all encounters past level 15 or so. Some might argue that level to be as low as 10 or lower. As a DM, as your players advance in level, you have to have even more encounters become of the "tailored" variety and even fewer of the "status quo" variety if you are to have any hope of actually challenging your players. The level of options available to characters after about 10th level becomes quite staggering and the relative power of your PCs depends on too many variables for a system like 3.5 to address consistently to all.

The part I am designing at the moment is more about matching the creatures in power, not specifically to a certain standard. The fact that later monsters of the same CR might be more powerful is something is a very disturbing thought with that. I have no idea which of these monsters the PCs will be facing first, they are each at the end of 12 paths, the order of these paths is optional but they all have to be walked to reach some final goal. Each creature's defeat will make the others stronger, that's what I had in mind to make later paths walked still challenging. But I guess there is no definite mechanic to prepare all 144 possible results accurately by simply taking 12 monsters and adding HD's and templates.

So I guess this would be Undead (augmented magical beast), if I had not decided not to use the creature at all.

I noticed the Shadow template I used there has been revised in Lord of Madness and now states that only vermin and animals change their types to magical beast.


Btw, not directly CR, but what happens to a creature's speed when you advance HD to the point it's size increases or just decide to increase a creature's size simply to make it stronger?

 

[Tharkon]

I have my own system for working this (and ECL, and EL) out, part of which amounts to "eyeball it".

However, to give you an idea of some (more) of the issues involved, the following PDF would be a great place to start: http://www.big-metto.net/Upload/files/Challenging_Challenge_Ratings_v5.pdf

(warning: that's a direct PDF link - in case you're at work or whatever)

Very interesting to read, but a bit complex to apply.
Also odd that they end up awarding low level party members less experience for defeating the same monster.