D&D 3E/3.5 CR for Succubus Blackguard in 3.5

[Endur]

Succubus is CR 7 (six hit dice)
Are the first six hit dice of Blackguard going to be +1 per level or +1 per two levels?

On the one hand, since high charisma is useful for a Blackguard (Smite, bonus to saves), it makes sense that it would +1 CR per level. On the other hand, Succubus seems like a Rogue type and Blackguard is a Warrior type. So maybe it should be +1 CR per two levels.

Has anybody tried using a Succubus Blackguard? How did the Character work out (from an story or rules point of view)?

 

[Sekket]

Forget the rules.

Give it levels in Blackguard until you think its on an even footing for your party as far as power, then go from there... adjust up or down.

Btw, shouldve probably put this into the Rogue's Gallery.

 

[Garnfellow]

Although fighting classes are associated classes for most outsiders, I would recommend having blackguard be a non-associated class for a succubus, since a succubus's special abilities are geared for infiltration, seduction, and party disruption. This SRD line says it all:

Succubi are not warriors. They flee combat whenever they can. If forced to fight, they can attack with their claws, but they prefer to turn foes against one another.

Rogue or bard would probably be good associated classes for a succubus. (Now that I think about it, future monster books should probably call this detail out, so we don't have to wonder.)

 

[RangerWickett]

What's all this 'associated class' clap-trap? Something new that I missed?

 

[Endur]

Back of your 3.5 Monster Manual. Improving a monster with a PC class is no longer an automatic +1 to CR.

What's all this 'associated class' clap-trap? Something new that I missed?

 

[Olive]

Forget the rules.

But the rules make a lot of sense.

Btw, shouldve probably put this into the Rogue's Gallery.

Why? It's a rules question.

Anyway, I basically agree with Garnfellow. But I would be careful... while a succubus's abilities are basically turned towards seduction etc, they still have fiend HD and progression. So perhaps Sekket's advice is worthwhile, to the extent that you'll need to make a judgement. It's not as clear cut as giving ftr levels to a balor.

 

[Urbanmech]

I would probably rule +1 CR per blackguard level. Just because the Succubus has abilities that aren't suited to making her a combat machine the high charisma and decent stats all around don't make her crummy blackguard. Outsider HD also help shift this into the +1 CR per level. Plus having all the charm abilities means that she can target the weak will save types and then spend her melee attacks dealing with the wizards and clerics.

I almost think any outsider who picks up a +1 per lv BAB class should have their CR raised 1 per CR (there may be some exceptions, maybe tiny outsiders). I think the nonassociated levels are more for giving spellcasting to high hit dice creatures without boosting their CR for little gain. The fighter type classes give good hit points, feats or special abilities and a good BAB, almost everyone benefits equally from adding one of these levels.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

This is right on the money. A succubus is not a particularly effective melee combatant as statted in the monster manual. But, give her an unholy sword, the elite stat array (with a focus on fighting), some combat focussed feats (as you have to in order to qualify her for blackguard), and some 1/1 BAB class levels and you have a very effective combatant. It's hard to avoid that when she starts with a BAB of +6.

So, I would say the first six levels of blackguard are 1/1. A succubus blackguard 6 with good fighting stats, a +12 BAB, and outsider saves, immunities, and SLAs is easily as challenging as a human Ftr 4/Rog 3/Blackguard 6 or most other CR 13 blackguards.

If you were talking about a succubus with an 8 strength and con (before racial modifiers) and whose feats were geared toward seduction and trickery, I'd be on the same page as the others here. But since you're talking about a succubus with 6+ levels of blackguard, you're obviously talking about a succubus who has stats, feats, and a mindset that encourage physical combat. Otherwise, she'd have rogue or bard levels instead of blackguard levels.

Anyway, I basically agree with Garnfellow. But I would be careful... while a succubus's abilities are basically turned towards seduction etc, they still have fiend HD and progression. So perhaps Sekket's advice is worthwhile, to the extent that you'll need to make a judgement. It's not as clear cut as giving ftr levels to a balor.

 

[Alzrius]

Just out of curiosity, can anyone point to an example of seeing a monster in print with its CR taking non-associated class levels into account (NPC classes notwithstanding)? Every monster I've ever seen in print treats its (PC) class levels as being 1:1 in terms of how they bump up the CR.

 

[Garnfellow]

[Give the succubus] an unholy sword, the elite stat array (with a focus on fighting), some combat focussed feats (as you have to in order to qualify her for blackguard), and some 1/1 BAB class levels and you have a very effective combatant. It's hard to avoid that when she starts with a BAB of +6.

Given /these/ assumptions, it would seem reasonable to make fighter an associated class. As others have pointed out, an outsider's excellent BAB makes fighter almost always associated.