CR on a trap

[noeuphoria]

Still playing our friendly old Nights Below 3.5 conversion, and seeing as how one of our characters just got #*U()&#&$*ed, thought I'd pose this question to the board. What is the CR for a trap that a) Casts Wish upon the victim to permanently transform them into a Lemure, and then Gates them directly to the 9 hells? The trap does have a saving throw: DC 40 fort save. Also, and this is the really fun part: any attempt to disarm the trap automatically springs it. It's always fun to have your characters squeak by a tough fight, to be owned by the BBEG's treasure chest.

 

[dcollins]

That's a nasty trap (and you didn't mention the acid storm that hits everyone else at the same time). Core rules traps only go up to CR 10. That one might go up a few notches over that, IMO.

 

[moritheil]

I don't think that's a valid use of a single Wish spell (or a single Wish and a Gate spell, because gates are entered voluntarily), so let's consider it to be 2 Wishes (one for polymorph and one for forced, involuntary planar transport.) Off the top of my head, I would say that the trap is probably a plot device, and not really a normal trap at all.

I'm looking through the Book of Challenges, and I find that a Lightning Bolt trap is EL 4, and a Flame Strike trap is EL 6. Going by these, we have trap level = spell level+1, which would seem to indicate an EL 10 trap. However, this trap features not one, but two 9th level spells, so that should be EL 12. Next, we must factor in something to account for the fact that it's completely not disarmable. This is the hardest feature to account for, as traps were really not intended to screw players over no matter what (but plot devices may, as I noted above.) I would say the trap is, with the acid storm, EL 15 or thereabouts, but it's irrelevant, as it can't be overcome.

 

[Saeviomagy]

any attempt to disarm the trap automatically springs it

This part is flat-out crap. Throw it out, and you've probably got a trap with a CR equal to the level of a caster with the spells needed to undo it - namely planeshift (it's the highest). That's a CR of 10.

 

[shilsen]

It's always fun to have your characters squeak by a tough fight, to be owned by the BBEG's treasure chest.

For many groups, I think this might only be fun for the DM. I agree with Saeviomagy about the "any attempt to disarm the trap automatically springs it" bit being stupid. Also, where are you getting the DC 40 from? The save vs. a 9th lvl spell should be about 23 (10 + spell level + minimum bonus required to cast it), as it is for the CR 10 traps in the DMG.

 

[IronWolf]

All I have to say is that is a *nasty* trap! I do agree though that no chance to disable just reeks of the old days!

 

[dcollins]

This part is flat-out crap. Throw it out, and you've probably got a trap with a CR equal to the level of a caster with the spells needed to undo it - namely planeshift (it's the highest). That's a CR of 10.

I must say I would also consider altering that if I myself were doing my own conversion. But, one must remember that back in the day of AD&D games were played for keeps. There were a lot of instant death traps around, and no automatic raise deads available either. Lots of folks will call that "unfun", but it is a faithful translation of the adventure in question.

A plane shift by itself isn't going to remedy this, either. The adventure original text says (Part III, p. 51):

Locating, much less rescuing, this unfortunate, will be an epic quest; not even a wish can return the affected being to its former nature unless it is located and forcibly removed back to the Prime Material Plane.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I must say I would also consider altering that if I myself were doing my own conversion. But, one must remember that back in the day of AD&D games were played for keeps. There were a lot of instant death traps around, and no automatic raise deads available either. Lots of folks will call that "unfun", but it is a faithful translation of the adventure in question.

A plane shift by itself isn't going to remedy this, either. The adventure original text says (Part III, p. 51):

Ok, so the trap is double crap. Forget about a CR and just tell the thief that his character is dead when you start the adventure.

 

[moritheil]

Yeah, as I said, it smells like a plot device and not an actual trap.

Ok, so the trap is double crap. Forget about a CR and just tell the thief that his character is dead when you start the adventure.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Yeah, as I said, it smells like a plot device and not an actual trap.

Except its really not since you can't get the person back. It's more of a guranteed death just in case the BBEG didn't kill anyone. Because any real game has to have a PC die.