D&D 5E (CR ratings) Could 6 level 6 characters survive and beat a Young Blue Dragon?

[FormerlyHemlock]

I consider it sufficiently scary to give all dragons class levels in Dragon Sorc. An adult red sorc 12 is extremely capable compared to a vanilla red.

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[Jaelommiss]

I consider it sufficiently scary to give all dragons class levels in Dragon Sorc. An adult red sorc 12 is extremely capable compared to a vanilla red.

How do you decide how many levels of sorcerer to give them?

Also, I had a long, detailed post to respond to your last questions, but then the electrician cut the power to my computer and I lost it all. Without spending ages typing it all out again, I agree entirely with what you posted about Feather Fall being vulnerable and flying away not being sufficient if characters survive the breath attack. I think that my dragons will rely more heavily on invisibility and hiding immediately by burrowing, diving, or vanishing down a hidden tunnel entrance.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Why not just use the spell casting dragon variant. It gives them a few spells to play with.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

How do you decide how many levels of sorcerer to give them?

I considered at one point tying it to CR (e.g. CR minus five equals Sorcerer level) but then decided that I want more granularity than that: I want ancient dragons to be 19th or 20th level and regular adults to start out at 9th to maybe 12th level (depending on how smart I think they are), but I also want there to be progression within that range so that a 200-year-old dragon isn't exactly identical to a 700-year-old dragon even though they're both adults. A gifted adult blue dragon 700 years old (nearly ancient, and a mate to an ancient red) might be a Sorcerer 16. A stupid adult white dragon that never did its homework might only be a Sorcerer 8.

In short, I eyeball it within specific ranges.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Why not just use the spell casting dragon variant. It gives them a few spells to play with.

Aesthetically I find the spell casting variant weird. So I know Shield, Polymorph, Seeming, and Teleport, but I can only cast each of them once a day? I can't cast Shield twice? That's weird to me. Besides, I want a direct link of some kind between Dragon Sorcerers and actual dragons--what better way than making them use the same mechanics?

Plus, this way dragons can Quicken (or Heighten) Hold Person V. [evil grin]

 

[Celtavian]

I'll toss in my experience having fought a ton of dragons as a player. I have yet to run a dragon combat.

It depends. I'll list several factors I've seen affect combat:

1. If your players have a lot of ranged firepower and bless, the dragon probably going to get destroyed. Ranged power allows a party to spread out avoiding breath weapons while delivering damage regardless of mobility. This is even more pronounced in 5E because a ranged attacker can fire all his attacks, then hide behind full cover. If you have a party with ranged power and terrain to hide behind, I wouldn't give the dragon much of a chance. It should probably run if it wants to stay alive.

2. If the party has access to a fly spell or two, this helps a melee martial engage the dragon in combat. This could still lead to a tough fight depending on how tough your martial is. It could also lead to a quick fight if you have a martial that can output a lot of damage quickly like an Action Surging fighter or Smiting Paladin. Combine this with a lot of ranged power, your dragon is probably going down quick.

3. Terrain: In an area of difficult terrain where the party has no cover and no ability to spread out, this could be advantage dragon. In most fights the party can spread out ameliorating the breath weapon damage. If they beat the breath weapon or limit its effect, it's pretty easy to beat the dragon.

4. Skill of the players: If the players are min/maxers, your dragon is probably done. If they are fairly competent, they can still figure out how to pop up heal after sacrificing one member to the breath weapon. At 6th level it's not worth it to try to heal the breath weapon damage. Better to just let the PC drop and use healing word or aid to pop up heal the fallen party member.

5. Luck: If the dragon recharges its breath weapon a few times, it could be rough. It's the most fearsome attack they have.

We fought a CR 13 dragon at 8th level in a five man party, really four and a half considering the cleric wasn't doing anything on offense. We fought it in its lair with difficult terrain dealing with lair actions. It was a tough fight where two of us died and one was down. We had very little ranged power, but access to a fly spell. It was our first dragon fight. Pretty harrowing at first. After that fight, we never had a hard time with dragons. Once fly became useable on multiple martials, we sent them into battle with casters assaulting from range. The dragons died quickly. If we had more ranged firepower in our group, I doubt even the CR 13 dragon would have been a problem at 8th level. ACs are low in this game. One bless spell makes a party nearly unbeatable against enemies without bless, especially if using feats like Sharpshooter or GWM.

If you're not doing anything too funky, six level 6 PCs should be able to kill a young blue dragon, possibly in a surprisingly easy fight.

 

[DaveDash]

The recent Dragon fight that I ran felt satisfactory. The party felt challenged and they were a bit stressed half way through the fight, but only as a DM knows I never felt they were in serious danger.

Level 14 at the time - Lore Bard, Light Cleric, Abjurer Wizard, Vengeance Paladin.

The Dragon lived on a vertical cliff face which was partially in the plane of shadow. In this zone, fire spells fizzled and the Dragon could pop in and out of shadows as a bonus action. I used the Adult Red Dragon stats but converted it to a Shadow Dragon, and I used the spell casting variant. I gave it spells like Counterspell, Shield, Misty Step, etc (CR18).

The party had been scaling up the cliff face killing the Dragons's Kir-Lanan minions. They then happened upon its lair, as it skulked in and out of the deep pools of shadow. It was willing to parley at first, but to my surprise they actually decided to attack it.

The Paladin and Wizard stumbled upon it at first, the Paladin already had fly cast on him as they were scaling this cliff face. The Wizard misty stepped and got the hell out of dodge as quickly as he could as well (he had slippers of spider climbing), they all retreated into a L shaped cave before the Dragon could catch up to them, hiding around the bend. They were spread out, and I didn't really want to waste my breath weapon on only getting one of them, and having ran a few Dragons before I knew heading into that little cave would actually be suicide for the Dragon, so I waited outside.

The Cleric cast bless and basically hid, the Bard was concentrating on Fly and also basically hid. The Paladin drank a potion of Storm Giant strength and a potion of haste, and went out to do battle. The Wizard followed him out with Mirror Image (heh little did he know this doesn't work against Dragons), Blink, and other buffs.

Despite the fact that the Paladin could easily kill it in two rounds (~270hp, with all those buffs he can easily output 150DPR), it ended up being a very hard fight. The Wizard almost died (his Arcane Ward saved him) when I rolled breath weapon twice in a row, and the Paladin had to retreat for at least one Heal spell.

Ultimately though there wasn't a lot it could do. The Paladin can move faster than it, do more damage than it, and also heal. It was a nailbiting fight for the group, but they did rush in foolishly in the beginning. If they retreated (wind walk), prepared some better spells, and then came back in they probably would have cake walked it.

The moral of the story here is Dragons by themselves don't really stand up against a group unless they have the odds stacked heavily in their favor. But this is also true of most creatures - a party can punch WELL above its weight when it's got a good amount of resources left and not scared to blow them.

The next Dragon my group will come across is a Dracolich, but I have lots of Dragon Zombies in the fight too, and they all look terribly similar. It will be interesting to see how this one pans out. Even though the Dragon Zombies are bags of hit points and can't do much, it's going to freak them out until they figure out what's going on.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Ultimately though there wasn't a lot it could do. The Paladin can move faster than it, do more damage than it, and also heal.

Too bad it didn't know Dispel Magic. No more Haste, no more Flying (splat), no more Bless, no more Storm Giant Strength, no more actions or movement that round (due to losing Haste).

Darkness is a really nice spell for dragons too, especially combined with Shield. AC 24 at disadvantage, suckers.

 

[DaveDash]

Too bad it didn't know Dispel Magic. No more Haste, no more Flying (splat), no more Bless, no more Storm Giant Strength, no more actions or movement that round (due to losing Haste).

Darkness is a really nice spell for dragons too, especially combined with Shield. AC 24 at disadvantage, suckers.

I didn't think about dispel magic truth be told when I was creating it - I didn't picture them doing battle with it on the cliff face, but rather in it's lair.

You're right, it would have thrown a spanner in the works for sure.

 

[YeetyBoi]

Looking at the Encounter rules, and using the calculator at Civclicker: 5e Encounter Calculator

It says a Young Blue Dragon (or even a Young Red Dragon!) Is an "Easy" Encounter, when facing six level 6 characters by itself. I can understand, by the numbers, how they would get this, but looking at the damage output of these thing's breaths, and the overall damage and mobility of these things, there's no way they can survive the thing without at least two PCs going down! (Maybe three PCs!)

Unless I'm missing something. Am I vastly underestimating the staying power and damage output of a typical level 6 party in 5E, especially if it has six players? I want the penultimate encounter to be with a Dragon, but I don't want the dragon to handily wipe out half the party so that they stand a good chance of all being there for the Ultimate Encounter.

At first I was thinking Black Dragon (CR 7), but that came out as Trivial, for so many PCs.
Then I went up the chart, to Green, then Blue, and Realized even Reds came up a bit short, and those guys are CR 10!

Even an Adult Blue (CR 15) comes up as "Hard" and those guys would wipe a party of 6 PCs at that level and not bat an eye. So I know the system is a bit wonky at extremes, that's fine, what WOULD be an appropriate dragon to throw at a bunch of PCs without throwing tons of extra minions to balance it out?

OR, would a new LEgendary Actions be the solution? (Yes I know it's Young, I'm thinking mechanically here).

Any advice from those 1-year veterans of 5E? Or even just those gamers with a lotta 5E sessions? Or Math Nerds?

Thank you in advance!

--H

If my level 6 paladin could 3- shot an adult green dragon, solo, yes.