CR System--> :) or :( ?

[LokiDR]

I started a campaign almost 6 months ago with a goal: I am going to follow the rules. Well, that went out the window when I decided to add "flavor" to the campaign setting. Now I am wondering about the CR system.

How do others feel the CR system works? I annoyed my players to no end with three imps when they averaged 4th level. Imps are CR 2, so this should have been a bit hard but well into the do-able range.

So tell me your stories, thoughts, how you would fix it and where it is wrong.

 

[Crothian]

For the most part I like it.

However, during the first game a I ran a group of 5 8th level charaters took on 2 sleeping hill giants. This was the first combat of the adventure, so they had full HPs and all their spells. THe party won, but 3 where unconscience and the other 2 were below 10hps each. THis is the closest I've ever come to a TPK, well except when they faced the Remoraz and that was a TPK.

Those are the only two times that I noticed the CRs being to hard. I don't know what happend during the hill giant battle, other fights against them proved much easier.

 

[ForceUser]

The CR system is great in WotC products - I have great faith in them being accurate. The CRs in several d20 products are badly skewed, however, such as in the Creature Collection from Sword & Sorcery. As a result I always read non-WotC monsters carefully before using them.

 

[Drew]

I love CR and EL, but its important to remember that its only a guideline. No two parties are the same, and its impossible to predict PC behaviour, dice rolls, etc.

CRs aren't perfect, but decent CRs are better than no CRs at all.

 

[Umbran]

As others have said, I will repeat

CRs are, all in all, a pretty good thing. They aren't perfect. The DM has to keep an eye on things, think a bit. But still, they work pretty darned well.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

CRs have been pretty much spot on

All the way from 1st level to 9th (so far), they've proven to be spot on. Enough to be a challenge for players (even the occasional death), but not enough to lead to TPKs, though they've been times when I've thought otherwise.

 

[TiQuinn]

CR is subjective because it can't take into the abilities of a party, nor can it take into account bad die rolls. Fort DC 13 for an Imp's poison sting is not horribly difficult to overcome, yet if the PC's roll poorly....well, them's the breaks. Similarly, See Invisibility is a 2nd level spell, and may be available to the party. Having that one spell could turn the encounter into a cakewalk. Yet if they don't...it's a lot more challenging. How is any system supposed to take all these factors into account?

 

[Gothmog]

I think the CR system is good in theory, but in practice it falls short of being accurate. In order to take the CR numbers "as is", there have to be too many considerations made.

If the party has average levels of equipment, and if the party has the standard spread of stats, and if the party has 4 characters, and if there are no environmental conditions that might make the encounter harder or easier, and if you assume average dice luck, then the CR system yields expected results about 60% of the time (from the hundred of battles we have played).

Throw out any one of those "ifs", and the whole CR thing becomes much less accurate. I personally like to run somewhat grittier games (less magic), so you have to scale the encounters down for the PCs so they can survive. On the other hand, since CR determines experience directly under the standard rules, it means in the long term, the PCs are earning less XP than they should for a typical encounter. This is fine with us since we like somewhat slower character advancement than 3E advocates, but I know a lot of people disagree.

I know I might get lynched for saying this, but I almost wish the CRs were just a rough guide to how tough the monster is, and that each monster was simply assigned an XP value, ala 2E.

 

[LokiDR]

Gothmog, you say a party of 4. Why are living city and Living Greyhawk moduals, with standard CRs, made for 6 people?

 

[Orco42]

Gothmog, you say a party of 4. Why are living city and Living Greyhawk moduals, with standard CRs, made for 6 people?

Because they are being easy on you.

In the DMG is states that CR is based on a party of 4.

For a party 6 you would increase the CR of monsters by one (6 level 5 characters against a CR 6 critter).

Overall I really like the CR system but there are times when you must do some adjusting.