CR System--> :) or :( ?

[Cloudgatherer]

Probably because the adventure was designed for 6 people.... it doesn't mean the CRs are designed for 6 people, they are designed for 4 people.

Overall, CR is a good guildeline. In one game I ran, I had two aware (as opposed to sleeping) fight a party consisting of a fighter, rogue, and a bard (all 8th level). They made mincemeat out of them....but there were some damn lucky rolls (couple crits by the fighter, good sneak attack damage by the rogue, and the bard boosted the other two's abilities).

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

I think the CR system is good in theory, but in practice it falls short of being accurate. In order to take the CR numbers "as is", there have to be too many considerations made.

If the party has average levels of equipment, and if the party has the standard spread of stats, and if the party has 4 characters, and if there are no environmental conditions that might make the encounter harder or easier, and if you assume average dice luck, then the CR system yields expected results about 60% of the time (from the hundred of battles we have played).

Throw out any one of those "ifs", and the whole CR thing becomes much less accurate. I personally like to run somewhat grittier games (less magic), so you have to scale the encounters down for the PCs so they can survive. On the other hand, since CR determines experience directly under the standard rules, it means in the long term, the PCs are earning less XP than they should for a typical encounter. This is fine with us since we like somewhat slower character advancement than 3E advocates, but I know a lot of people disagree.

Here's somebody who doesn't understand the difference between CR (Challenge Rating) and EL (encounter level). CR is an indicator of how hard a monster is. EL is an indicator of how tough an encounter is. When you design encounters, you aim for a specific EL that centers around your particular PCs. In other words, if you have more characters, the EL should go up. (The rule of time is that for a party of 5, you can safely kick the ELs up by 1, and a party of 6, you can kick the ELs up by 2) CRs have no real game use, other than to generate ELs AND provide an xp value.

Furthermore, if you read any of the published modules carefully (particularly Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil), you find pretty good guidelines for how to modify XP for particular circumstances. Check out the module, it's really good for an understanding of how the CR/EL system is intended to be used, even if you never run it.

The system works really well within its limits. It does have limits, but in my conversations and discussions with other DMs and players, it seems to me that the real limits are various DM's understanding of CRs and ELs. (I've lost count of how many DMs, for instance, don't understand that an EL of a particular level is intended to only absorb 20% of the party's resources --- boss monsters should be set at EL +3 of the party's average party level (APL))

And don't get me started on how few DMs actually understand the difference between CR and ECL (effective character levels).

 

[Wolfen Priest]

Well I am in the process of designing a very specific random encounter table suitable for 5th level characters travelling through a plains landscape, and from what I can tell, the CR's in that range are not that good.

Take for example, a barghest (I think?) which has a CR of 4; yet it has DR 15/+1, and no one in the party has a +1 weapon. Therefore, they are never going to damage this thing. So a party of 4 5th-level PC's could easily be slaughtered in a normal stand-up fight with a CR 4 creature. What is that all about?

 

[Butholios]

Well I am in the process of designing a very specific random encounter table suitable for 5th level characters travelling through a plains landscape, and from what I can tell, the CR's in that range are not that good.

Take for example, a barghest (I think?) which has a CR of 4; yet it has DR 15/+1, and no one in the party has a +1 weapon. Therefore, they are never going to damage this thing. So a party of 4 5th-level PC's could easily be slaughtered in a normal stand-up fight with a CR 4 creature. What is that all about?

The system depends upon PCs having access to appropriate gear for their level (see the DMG for the chart).

5th level and not even a +1 weapon? You're describing an error in your assumptions and play style, not in the system. Treat those poor, poor saps as level 3; EL 3 encounters should be plenty challenging for them.

 

[Orco42]

In other words, if you have more characters, the EL should go up. (The rule of time is that for a party of 5, you can safely kick the ELs up by 1, and a party of 6, you can kick the ELs up by 2) CRs have no real game use, other than to generate ELs AND provide an xp value.

I think that should be +1 EL if you have a party of 6 and +2 for a party of 8.

When you double the size of a party you add 2 to the EL. Same as if you double the number of monsters.

 

[Hammerhead]

Try the magic weapon spell. Also, the magic treasure thing generally assumes that PCs have some magic weapons.

Apart from some anomalies, the CR system seems to work fairly well. However, many of the but-kicking monsters like Girallons, Hill Giants, big vermin, etc seem to be comprises between the danger in a straight fight, and the ease of defeating them with other means. A Colossal Scorpian is really mean in melee, but has no SR and can by bypassed with magic easily. If the party goes in and tries to hack and blast it to death, then it will be tougher than normal. It's around +2 CR in a real fight, but avoidance or Flying attacks could make it -3. That's too much variance for me. Similarly, monsters like Balors seem to have too few HD for their CR. So melee power seems to be slightly downplayed and spell like powers given too much weight. Also, NPCs seem a bit too easy for their CR.

 

[Orco42]

Good points Hammerhead.

I would also say the CR's really don't work to well at epic levels. You could have two level 40 characters with the same stats and amount of goods and one could win 9 times out of 10.

And times the right party can toast a 50 CR critter and be crushed by a 40 CR monster.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Well I am in the process of designing a very specific random encounter table suitable for 5th level characters travelling through a plains landscape, and from what I can tell, the CR's in that range are not that good.

Take for example, a barghest (I think?) which has a CR of 4; yet it has DR 15/+1, and no one in the party has a +1 weapon. Therefore, they are never going to damage this thing. So a party of 4 5th-level PC's could easily be slaughtered in a normal stand-up fight with a CR 4 creature. What is that all about?

It is living dangerous not to have some way of dealing with DR. Magic Weapon is the first scroll I pick up when I have a few extra coin. I would point out that a Wizard, Sorceror, Cleric, Bard, Paladin, and Ranger all have ways of dealing with X/+1 DR at 4th level if they prepared for the inevitable day DR would raise its ugly head. 25 gp and a little foresight is not much to pay to avoid a TPK.

The Barghest doesn't have many hit points so it could conceivably be whittled down by offensive spells and holy water alone.

IMO the CR is quite good overall, even if it has flaws in its details.

The main weakness is some creatures have abilities that are very random in their effectiveness. Such creatures are just not predictable when put up against parties of 3-4 PCs. Try putting a ghoul up against an iconic group of four 1st level PCs; it will cause a TPK easily 10% of the time because of its paralysis effect.

 

[barsoomcore]

I run a low-magic campaign (no, really, REALLY low magic) and so CRs are pretty useless for me. Very few of my party (at 10th level) have magic weapons and there's only one spellcaster and a part-time psioncist so DR and other abilities have a much bigger effect on combat than in most campaigns.

But I can see their usefulness to other campaigns.

As I said on another thread, though, I wish the DMG was clearer about pointing out that CRs for creatures doesn't mean that killing creatures is the only way to gain XP. I assign CRs to tasks (and to monsters) and award the XP if the party completes the task (get past the guards, steal the ruby, find Etienne's dad). How many monsters died in the process doesn't figure into it.

 

[Hammerhead]

Good points Hammerhead.

I would also say the CR's really don't work to well at epic levels. You could have two level 40 characters with the same stats and amount of goods and one could win 9 times out of 10.

And times the right party can toast a 50 CR critter and be crushed by a 40 CR monster.

Yes, at higher levels there can be lots more "deal with it or die" kind of effects. If you rely on another character for those things and there's some sort of foul up and he can't do it, or if you create 40th level characters and forget something, then you will be in trouble.

Also, at higher levels, a player building a character with an eye for power can have a much more powerful character than someone with a more haphazard approach. Incremental effects seem like they stack much more at higher levels. There wouldn't be that much of a difference between a minmaxed 1st level character and a solid, but rather ordinary character. However, at 20th level, there'd probably be a huge difference. At 40th level, the minmaxed character will be in a completely different leage, or maybe a different sport.