Craft rules make no sense at all

[Coredump]

Hmmm... yes and no.

I see people talking about different scenarios, and apparently not realizing it.

Lets assume my character can take 10 and always gets a 30.

NOTE: all these example numbers I am MAKING UP; so please don't correct them.

So I make Plate armor DC 18 cost 10,000sp takes 18.5 weeks

If I decide to use 'advanced techniques' it makes it harder

So I make Plate armor DC 28 cost 10,000sp takes 12 weeks

That makes sense.


Now, if I decide to make something that is harder, and cheaper (like a +4 Mighty bow) that will take much less time (yes a different craft check, work with me here) That makes sense. It may not be a long process *IF* you have the talent. It is simple/fast to do certain high level math problems *IF* you have the knowledge.

Now, what if you make something that is harder and more expensive. Well the COST is the key term here. It is assumed that the system was (partially) designed so that the cost would represent the length of time it takes to make. At the base difficulty. Now, some things will not fit this, and may need tweaking. (IMO, chainmail)

So, while it is counter-intuitive that harder things are faster, in reality harder things are more expensive, and thus still take longer; or they *may* be cheaper/faster, but only if you are qualified to do them.

.

 

[Conaill]

This thread seems to crop up about every other month or so...

The Craft rules DO make sense. They're just a bit confusing until you realize what they're doing.

See, in the real world, you don't just look at the market price of an item and how hard it is to make, and from that calculate how long it will take you to craft. Rather the market price is determined by how hard it is to craft and how long it takes you! This is the crucial realization.

Now, WotC could have published tables of DC's and "time to craft" for each item, and left it up to you to figure out the market price from that. Of course, for a game like D&D where Crafting is only a minor component, it's much easier to just give a table of market prices, and provide a formula to work backwards and let you figure out how long it must have taken you to craft that item for it to have that price.

Roughly, Price = DC x Time, so Time = Price / DC

In your example, if the smith increased the DC (say, working with a harder metal) and worked just as long, then obviously he would ask a lot more for the finished product! The only way it would make economic sense for him to charge the same for the higher-DC item is if it took less time to make than the lower-DC item.

It all makes sense... provided you look at it backwards!

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

The main issue with the Craft rules as I see it is that there is no method for differentiation between cost of materials and cost of labor.

An item may be 99% materials cost, with very little labor (like a plain gold ring).

An item may be 99% labor cost with the materials being essentially free, like a well-carved piece of wood.

Example: The great thing about gold is that its soft, and therefor easy to work. The thing with iron is that its strong, but more difficult to work. Identical rings made of gold and iron would widely vary in cost; the gold ring would be much more valuable, yet take less time to make.

It would be nice to have that reflected in the rules. Maybe merely designating what percentage of an items cost comes from labor (even in 25% chunks, this would make things better).

The problem of course, is that doing this for all possible items is pretty pointless. You'll never need it until you need it, and the value gained would be negated by all the people who would complain about the wasted effort.

 

[Conaill]

AFAIK, the cost of special materials (like making a gold ring rather than an iron one) is not included in the calculation of how long it takes to craft. This is never mentioned specifically, but is somewhat implied in the section on special materials (mithral, adamantium, etc.)

 

[DreamChaser]

An item may be 99% materials cost, with very little labor (like a plain gold ring).

An item may be 99% labor cost with the materials being essentially free, like a well-carved piece of wood.

This is completely true but I would say that playing the averages, a break down of 50% materials and 50% labor works pretty well. Even your examples average out to 50/50.

I guess it is true that this is only a vague approximation. At least that is in the spirit of the game rules. Most everything in D&D is a vague approximation. I think that is one of the things that keeps it fun. JMO.

DC

 

[Conaill]

PS: obviously, sometimes it makes more sense to use penalties to the skill check rather than DC increases. Those are typically equivalent, but for the crafting progress calculation, the difference is essential.

If the smith is forced by his evil overlord to work blindfolded, obviously he should receive a penalty to his skill check, rather than increasing the DC of the item. The resulting armor will not have any higher market price, but it will take the smith much longer to make.

If said smith (after the valiant PCs kill the evil overlord, of course) later decides to specialize in working with a metal that will blind you on sight... such a metal would have an inherently higher DC to work with. The smith will still take a skill penalty for being blindfolded, and the armor may take just as long to craft as when crafting steel armor blindfolded, but because he is working with this special material the value of his labor (i.e. progress per week) and thus the final market price of the armor will be much higher.

Likewise, you cannot craft faster by tying one hand behind your back (skill penalty), however you can craft faster by hurrying a voluntarily raising the DC. Use common sense...

 

[Vahktang]

Ever try to cut gems?
Polish up an uncut gem worth 500 gp to a rare gem worth 5000 gp?
That should take years, too, according to the formula.
The weight varient shouldn't come into it, either.
This makes no sense.
Weeks, sure, but not years.

And you are supposed to multiply the result of the DC for how much value is produced each week towards the total value.
Explain how if you make it by 12 (the first example) takes a longer time than making by 2 (the second example)?

More later,

Vahktang

 

[Diirk]

Hmm, it doesn't mention anything about special materials in the craft skill in the SRD but in the special materials section, it seems to imply its as easy to craft as steel and then lists the price as a modifier.. so maybe the intent was to modify the price after crafting considerations? Which would result in 9500gp to make Mithril Full Plate, and it would take as long as normal full plate to make. Does that sound reasonable? Not sure.

As opposed to my previous notion that it cost 3500gp (1/3 price on the mithril for raw materials) and it take multiple years.

 

[Conaill]

Hmm, it doesn't mention anything about special materials in the craft skill in the SRD but in the special materials section, it seems to imply its as easy to craft as steel and then lists the price as a modifier.. so maybe the intent was to modify the price after crafting considerations? Which would result in 9500gp to make Mithril Full Plate, and it would take as long as normal full plate to make. Does that sound reasonable?

Yup, that's the way I would interpret it. Except that you'll also have to count in time for the Masterwork component of Mithral of course.

With a modicum of common sense, the Craft rules work fine as is. I would have loved to see these issues cleared up in 3.5, but with one of the 3.5 designers explicitly stating that they're not really interested in Craft because it's just a "flavor" skill, what can you expect?

 

[AeroDm]

The craft rules seem to have been created entirely to support players occasionally trying to craft themselves a sword or armor with, at best, a masterwork component. Sure it takes some time, but the party takes downtime and they craft a weapon. Good flavor, good fun.

When you try to actually 'use' the rules, they are terrible. I tried to toy with them and after 5 minutes I decided they weren't even a good place to start. No suggestions on how to improve them, but I can offer advice to move on. D&D has a lot of 'problems' that house rule fans can toy with, and I assume anyone who wants to house rule Craft is a house rule fan!

Come on, join us over by hit points, armor class, prestige classes, skill points, magic systems. It'll be fun.