Crazy martial power source houserule

[ImperialParadox]

Myself, some of my players, and some other people in various threads have expressed a certain amount of 'conceptual error' with the martial classes and the way some of their powers seem to be 'unrealisticaly restricted.'

By this I mean the questions that pop up like 'why can my fighter only try to trip someone once a fight,' or 'if my rogue can shift and stab a guy like that why doesn't he do it every round'? In other words the (debatable) limitations of encounter and daily powers with regards to a sense of gaming versimillitude.

So with this in regards, I've been kicking around various house rules for 'martial' classes. These are just thought, and may or may not require changes to the other class types for overall balance.

1) The first idea I had, and to me one of the more fun ones, is to introduce a sort of combo system to martial characters. It works like this:

a) At the start of a fight, the character has access to his at-will powers.
b) If the character successfully hits with an at-will power, on his next attack he can choose to either use an at-will power or an encounter power.
c) If the character than successfully hits with an encounter power, on the following attack he may choose to perform an at-will, encounter, or daily power.
d) If the character attempts a daily power, of if the character misses with any attack, his 'martial tempo' resets back to only at-will powers.

This seemed like a fairly neat idea, basically the martial character would build up his pace in a fight, landing more and more devastating attacks as he successfully combats his opponent.

However, the character would lose his ability to 'alpha-strike' in the first round of combat, and sometimes would not have access to powers when he needs them, as he may not have 'built up' his martial tempo to that level yet.

2) My second idea is more straightforward. You can spend one healing surge to recover an encounter power, or two(maybe three) surges to recover a daily power. This would allow you to renew powers when you need them, but at the cost of potential healing.

3) My third idea has probably been thought of by many people. Just some sort of power recharge mechanic, like you get your powers back on a natural 20, or if you spend a standard action to refocus you get your powers back, etc. etc.

Any thought on any of these options or preferences for which one is better? Thanks for the input.

 

[Kaffis]

Your third option is a non-starter, I think. A standard action isn't nearly enough of an opportunity cost to get even one daily back; plus, it means you'd have a full stack of dailies every encounter (since between encounters is plenty of time to take 5 standard actions...). *maybe* spend a full round to get an encounter power back, but even that stretches things and is likely to come close to obviating several at-wills depending on class.

The second idea has lots of potential merit, but the DM would have to make it clear that this is not to be an incentive to "shorten the adventuring day," as the complaint went in 3.x. The temptation would definitely be to buy back encounters and dailies and expend your daily resources in an encounter or two. Maybe if you made it an option to expend an action point to get an encounter power back, that might work. Or a feat that "recharges" an encounter power when an action point is spent normally, and the general option to regain one daily power by sacrificing an action point. This variation, I like more, as it puts a tighter limit on how much can be "bought back" in one encounter, and puts the resource directly in the DM's hands to regulate as he sees fit based on his players' usage habits. It also de-couples the tempting option of buying powers back from an essential daily resource.

The combo option (sorry for the tired, vague cliche) feels too "gamey." It detracts from the tactical selection of a given power, picking the right one for the situation any given round presents you with, in favor of an arbitrary and artificial criteria. This is seen in one form in your noted loss of "alpha strike" options, but could also be seen in countless scenarios such as being presented with an ideal cleave opportunity (say, presented with two minions shielding a big artillery guy or controller), but encouraged by the "combo system" to use an encounter power or lose the opportunity to go for your big damage daily next turn. So instead of taking out both the minions and being free to use your daily on the now exposed big bad, you use an encounter and overkill one minion, and then have to take an OA to get at the big guy.

In addition, you're basically letting martial characters use 2-3 dailies a fight if they build and play for to-hit bonuses. Each. Encounter. Based on my observed encounter lengths, at least. This is significantly more discretion to use dailies than other power sources get, who might save up dailies to use 2-3 of in the "big fight of the day" only. This works out to be a serious factor in making non-martial sources unappealing.

 

[Dannager]

What Kaffis said. The underlying problem here is that you're trying to give nifty little perks to one specific power source based on how you think it should operate. The real answer, of course, is to keep the system how it is and to understand that the idea of encounter/daily powers being limited in use even for martial characters represents an abstract, narrative-based mechanic and is indicative of a character finding certain opportunities to use certain techniques, or being able to reach down to reserves of adrenaline a couple times each fight to pull off particularly stunning moves.

 

[ImperialParadox]

The combo option (sorry for the tired, vague cliche) feels too "gamey." It detracts from the tactical selection of a given power, picking the right one for the situation any given round presents you with, in favor of an arbitrary and artificial criteria. This is seen in one form in your noted loss of "alpha strike" options, but could also be seen in countless scenarios such as being presented with an ideal cleave opportunity (say, presented with two minions shielding a big artillery guy or controller), but encouraged by the "combo system" to use an encounter power or lose the opportunity to go for your big damage daily next turn. So instead of taking out both the minions and being free to use your daily on the now exposed big bad, you use an encounter and overkill one minion, and then have to take an OA to get at the big guy.

In addition, you're basically letting martial characters use 2-3 dailies a fight if they build and play for to-hit bonuses. Each. Encounter. Based on my observed encounter lengths, at least. This is significantly more discretion to use dailies than other power sources get, who might save up dailies to use 2-3 of in the "big fight of the day" only. This works out to be a serious factor in making non-martial sources unappealing.

I think you misunderstood the third option in part. You are not forced to 'upgrade' your attack, you simply gain options as increase your combat tempo. In other words, say you are fighting goblin minions. In the first round, one approaches you, and you kill him with an at-will power. The next round, two goblins approach you in a perfect cleave setup. This round you are not required to use an encounter power, you simply have the option too. You could use your at-will cleave instead, and still have the option to use an encounter power next round, because you already hit with an at-will and upgraded your attack. To open up for a daily, you would still have to eventually hit with an encounter power, however. You just don't get set back as long as a) you don't miss, or b) don't use a daily power.

Keep in mind too, I *am* trying to speed up encounters a bit, in my experience, combats can be tediously slow at times.

Though in other regards, I do see the problem of not having all your tactical options open. Specifically with regards to powers that shift yourself or your friends and enemies, for example.

 

[ImperialParadox]

What Kaffis said. The underlying problem here is that you're trying to give nifty little perks to one specific power source based on how you think it should operate. The real answer, of course, is to keep the system how it is and to understand that the idea of encounter/daily powers being limited in use even for martial characters represents an abstract, narrative-based mechanic and is indicative of a character finding certain opportunities to use certain techniques, or being able to reach down to reserves of adrenaline a couple times each fight to pull off particularly stunning moves.

Yeah, but if I accepted that there wouldn't be a reason for a house rules forum, eh?

As I said too, I may or may not have to rebalance the other power sources against any changes to the martial source. I am trying for a slightly sped up rate of combat overall.

 

[Khuxan]

1) The first idea I had, and to me one of the more fun ones, is to introduce a sort of combo system to martial characters. It works like this:

a) At the start of a fight, the character has access to his at-will powers.
b) If the character successfully hits with an at-will power, on his next attack he can choose to either use an at-will power or an encounter power.
c) If the character than successfully hits with an encounter power, on the following attack he may choose to perform an at-will, encounter, or daily power.
d) If the character attempts a daily power, of if the character misses with any attack, his 'martial tempo' resets back to only at-will powers.

This seemed like a fairly neat idea, basically the martial character would build up his pace in a fight, landing more and more devastating attacks as he successfully combats his opponent.

However, the character would lose his ability to 'alpha-strike' in the first round of combat, and sometimes would not have access to powers when he needs them, as he may not have 'built up' his martial tempo to that level yet.

I think it's definitely an interesting idea. I'm not sure it's balanced, but I certainly think it could be fun to test out.

Maybe it would work best in a game where everyone is playing martial characters - perhaps a sword & sorcery style game.

EDIT: I'm not sure if it would make it more fun, but it could make it more balanced to add a new tempo:
Basic attacks
At-Will attacks
Encounter attacks
Daily attacks

You could also add circumstances at which you start at a higher tempo: perhaps if you prepare an ambush or perform a called shot you can open with a daily power before your tempo returns to at-wills or basic attacks. Maybe if you take advantage of terrain you can use an encounter power no matter what your tempo.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I read somewhere about a system someone had in mind where the DM gave out plot points for characters achieving personal goals and when successfully dealing with the characters' personal goals, but I can't seem to find it now. I had thought that renewing the use of a daily or a couple of encounter abilities would be good use for that.

Of course the problem with that method is that it is open to DM favoritism, but when it comes down to it, what isn't?

 

[Khuxan]

I read somewhere about a system someone had in mind where the DM gave out plot points for characters achieving personal goals and when successfully dealing with the characters' personal goals, but I can't seem to find it now. I had thought that renewing the use of a daily or a couple of encounter abilities would be good use for that.

Of course the problem with that method is that it is open to DM favoritism, but when it comes down to it, what isn't?

That thread is here, Maddman's Plans to Fix 4E. While I was intrigued by his system, I don't think it matches up particularly well with what ImperialParadox is trying to do here. It seems they are two quite different attitudes - after all, Maddman's system applies to all characters and not just martial ones.

I think Madmann was also careful to make sure his system didn't increase the number of encounter and daily powers a character could use, which is the opposite of what ImperialParadox is trying here.

 

[ImperialParadox]

I think Madmann was also careful to make sure his system didn't increase the number of encounter and daily powers a character could use, which is the opposite of what ImperialParadox is trying here.

Yeah, Ideally I would like to make changes to the way each power source works, to give them more flavor, and have them equal but different.

I'm not really married to any of the ideas. The combat tempo one seems fun, but it's gimmicky. I think it would only work if the powers were made with that in mind.

 

[inkpenavenger]

I actually think that allowing characters to expent one daily resource in exchange for another is a pretty interesting idea. It may just be the way I build dungeons, but my players rarely have the opportunity to take an exteded rest inside a dungeon (I do a lot of occupied fortress style dungeons) so spending surges to regain powers would be a pretty tough choice for them. Do I want to use Brute Strike again, or do I need those hp after the encounter? I might try that out next session.