Creating a demi-human race and society

[Edena_of_Neith]

Add telepathy.

I have seen telepathy as an innate ability of a number of peoples in books I've read, so ...

Let's go with telepathy.

The power is:

- always on
- range is several hundred feet (like the sound of speech, it becomes fainter with distance, and there is a limit to how loud one can 'shout' telepathically.)
- One can mentally block and thus lessen (but not completely shut out) the 'noise' of a telepathic 'crowd' such as people conversing telepathically in a marketplace. This requires effort (it is annoying to keep your fingers in your psychic ears constantly ...)
- Usable to communicate with one person at a time, only
- Usable to listen to one person at a time, only (several people can try to 'talk' to the receiver at once, of course, generating a lot of telepathic 'noise' and forcing the listener to try and hear one person over the din.)
- Is language dependant. One can converse telepathically in the languages he or she knows, and make crys, screeches, shouts, and other things of this sort telepathically.
- Images can be sent, but it requires extra energy to send images, and the images are only as clear as the images in the sender's mind (they are often, thus, vague or blurry)

Now, this is in addition to the Darkvision power these people in the Charlemagne setting have.

What are the additional changes this power is going to have on this society? How much more alteration occurs? And why?

 

[fusangite]

Let's take a typical NPC Commoner.
Make that Commoner 1st level.
Make him human.
Assume a Charlemagne environment exists around him.

So, to be clear, you mean the environment of 9th century Europe under Frankish rule. Gotcha.

Now, what we are going to do is make this Commoner into a demi-human (or, in 3rd Edition, a humanoid) and seeing how the society around him would change as a result. We are going to do this by granting him traits that unusual variations for a human, or are outright inhuman. Then altering the society around him to reflect the fact that everyone else (in the Charlemagne society) has this inhuman trait also.

Bear with me here. Are you saying that we should turn everyone in the Carolingian Empire into the same kind of demi-human?

Then, we will add game rules (from any edition) to reflect the change, or make it feasible.

I do not know what you mean here. Do you mean that the physics of 9th century France should become D&D physics? Because, the social, ecological, economic and political realities of 9th century France would have a lot of difficulty arising in a D&D world.

Even if we leave aside the question of how something like the Carolingian Empire could have emerged, we would then have to face the fact that ot would be a lot more powerful and effective under D&D physics. The number of low-level clerics in the society was significantly greater than the number in your standard DMG demographics table, especially in rural areas (which was basically everywhere).

Would we use the class demographics from the DMG for describing the society or the Carolingians' own class demographics (lots of Rangers, Clerics, Fighters and Commoners and not much else)?

Everyone in the society (the Charlemagne society) now has Darkvision

People would travel differently. In Carolingian society, people generally traveled only during daylight and society pretty much shut down at night. Goods and information would move faster as a result of Darkvision. Would the adjacent societies also have Darkvision or just the people in the Empire? If only the Carolingians had Darkvision, I imagine that the empire would have seized more and different territory.

But what about the conquered peoples of Charlemagne's world? Would the Gascons, Saxons, Croats, Italians and Frisians have Darkvision or would only the Franks? Obviously, the empire would be very different if people in its new territories were not part of the same D&D race as those in its core territory.

Finally, a huge factor would be the fate or European wildlife. The main things that kept people indoors in Charlemagne's world were nocturnal predators in the giant enveloping forest. Carolingian attempts at predator control would actually have been successful and people would have had a much fairer fight against the great cats and wolves that menaced their communities.

Light spoils Darkvision. Light a torch, and everyone on the street is momentarily blinded

The presence of light does not spoil darkvision. If a character has darkvision with a 60 foot range, and he stands within a 20-foot radius of light, the character can see normally in the light, and 40 feet beyond the light because of his darkvision.

Primitive society = no air conditioning. But a hothouse climate is great for growing a lot of different fauna. A group (sub-group, faction, whatever) that can live in an uncomfortably hot area, only working at night and mostly sleeping away the day, would give you some interesting economic options.

Not really applicable to 9th century France, Germany and Northern Italy. No adjacent territory fits the bill.

The same applies to mining -- which even becomes safer.

This is a very good point. Although there were lots of other reasons very little mining got done in 9th century Europe, this would certainly have increasedthe amount.

I would actually expect the society to trend towards being LESS divided over day and night folks. Everyone can see in the dark. Unless they use a regimented working schedule -- a hold-over in modern times of the old sun-tied work system -- then people are going to sleep, eat, and work when it's the most efficient. This could easily lead to more fluid cycles and LOTS more 24-hour establishments.

Sounds solid to me.

Daytime drinking? Not a problem (or a social stigma), since it's assumed you were working during the night.

There was no problem with daytime drinking in the Carolingian world anyway. Water was too unreliable.

Buying a fancy gown at 4am? No problem, there are multiple shifts of dress-makers.

If you could afford a fancy gown in the Carolingian world, it is pretty much expected you would have servants you could rouse from bed for that anyway.

I'd expect such a society -- given enough people -- would be far more productive than a 'standard' group of humans. People work when they want and when they're at their best and sleep whenever works for them. Farmers can work the fields day or night, improving harvests and planting cycles -- you can get the work done in fewer days, providing a better chance to get the seeds down or crops out before rains/winter/other undesirable conditions. Milling works the same way -- the river turns that wheel all night long, so let's have millers there feeding product into it all the time.

Excellent points!

Fire will lose some of its value - though it's still a weapon, a deterrant for predators, a way to cook food, and a way to perceive colour.

Other crucial functions of fire in 9th century Europe: manufacturing metal objects and making beer. These were pretty crucial social tasks.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

So, to be clear, you mean the environment of 9th century Europe under Frankish rule. Gotcha.Bear with me here. Are you saying that we should turn everyone in the Carolingian Empire into the same kind of demi-human?I do not know what you mean here. Do you mean that the physics of 9th century France should become D&D physics? Because, the social, ecological, economic and political realities of 9th century France would have a lot of difficulty arising in a D&D world.

Remember that I'm no historian.
But yes, we are *starting* with the environment of 9th century Europe under Frankish rule. We won't *end* with that, of course. But I had to start somewhere. I was very unclear on where to start, but thought Charlemagne's France would be a good place.
Yes, when we change something, we are changing that something for everyone ... in Charlemagne's France, including Charlemagne and his knights and army as well. We aren't changing any other place or society (such as Spain under Moorish occupation, or the Germanic tribes.)

The physics of 9th century France are the current physics, yes. As of yet, aside from the changes we have made, there is no magic, no psionics, nothing different from real-world Earth. We can add in those changes later.
Right now the only changes from historical reality are: the people of Carolingian Empire (Charlemagne's France) have Darkvision and Telepathy as described in earlier posts.
Now, we must figure out what changes that would make in the Carolingian Empire. We've done a lot of that for Darkvision (but more changes are possible.) We now must work on the changes for telepathy.

Even if we leave aside the question of how something like the Carolingian Empire could have emerged, we would then have to face the fact that ot would be a lot more powerful and effective under D&D physics. The number of low-level clerics in the society was significantly greater than the number in your standard DMG demographics table, especially in rural areas (which was basically everywhere).

At the *moment*, the Carolingian Empire is operating under normal physics, no clerics (or wizards, etc.) exist, and they have Darkvision and Telepathy as described in the earlier posts.

Would we use the class demographics from the DMG for describing the society or the Carolingians' own class demographics (lots of Rangers, Clerics, Fighters and Commoners and not much else)?People would travel differently. In Carolingian society, people generally traveled only during daylight and society pretty much shut down at night. Goods and information would move faster as a result of Darkvision. Would the adjacent societies also have Darkvision or just the people in the Empire? If only the Carolingians had Darkvision, I imagine that the empire would have seized more and different territory.

At the moment, the adjacent regions and peoples do not have anything the peoples of the Carolingian society have. I *appreciate* that this gives Charlemagne a crucial advantage. But we can go into the neighboring peoples later ... we are working on Charlemagne's people right now.
We are assuming (for this thread's purposes only) that the Carolingian Empire is not larger than it was historically at it's height.
And yes, things are different already. Look at the above posts. People have speculated on drastic changes for the Darkvision alone. Which is good ... we are creating that altered Demi-Human society!

But what about the conquered peoples of Charlemagne's world? Would the Gascons, Saxons, Croats, Italians and Frisians have Darkvision or would only the Franks? Obviously, the empire would be very different if people in its new territories were not part of the same D&D race as those in its core territory.

Only the Franks. For the moment, everyone else is out of luck.
If this means these other people are at a disavantage, both socially and militarily, then they are. (They obviously are, of course.) I'm guessing they are 2nd class peoples, in the Carolingian Empire, that the laws for them are different and repressive.

Finally, a huge factor would be the fate or European wildlife. The main things that kept people indoors in Charlemagne's world were nocturnal predators in the giant enveloping forest. Carolingian attempts at predator control would actually have been successful and people would have had a much fairer fight against the great cats and wolves that menaced their communities.

In this case, you've pointed out a *major* difference from the Darkvision alone.
The Frankish people of the Empire, with Darkvision and Telepathy, have a crushing advantage in fighting the animals and killing/driving them off. If they wish to fell the forests, they have the advantage there as well, no?
Anyone care to discuss the ramifications of this? That's what this thread is about ...

Not really applicable to 9th century France, Germany and Northern Italy. No adjacent territory fits the bill.This is a very good point. Although there were lots of other reasons very little mining got done in 9th century Europe, this would certainly have increasedthe amount.Sounds solid to me.There was no problem with daytime drinking in the Carolingian world anyway. Water was too unreliable.If you could afford a fancy gown in the Carolingian world, it is pretty much expected you would have servants you could rouse from bed for that anyway.Excellent points!Other crucial functions of fire in 9th century Europe: manufacturing metal objects and making beer. These were pretty crucial social tasks.

And now, we have peasants working the fields day and night. Shops are open day and night. Taverns are open day and night. People are stuck with that 60 foot limit on Darkvision, so the social norms are all altered. Sudden lighting of torches and lanterns in someone's face is rude (it could even be a crime, in certain situations.)
Mining is easier in that people can see in the dark, yes. It's not easier in other ways ... (or is it?)
And I'm guessing everyone is drinking beer (?), since the water is so dangerous. No special immunities to parasites have been granted the Franks.

Since the 'conquered' peoples - the Gascons, Saxons, Croats, Italians, Frisians, and others - have neither Darkvision nor Telepathy, how do the laws apply to them? What social norms do they exist under? What special rules has Charlemagne and his nobles passed down for them?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Great post, Fusangite. A lot of great questions asked.
Does anyone have answers?

Here is the telepathic powers that were suggested. Here's how telepathy works with the Franks, the people who actually have the power within Charlemagne's France (the Carolingian Empire) :

TELEPATHY:

The power is:

- always on
- range is several hundred feet (like the sound of speech, it becomes fainter with distance, and there is a limit to how loud one can 'shout' telepathically.)
- One can mentally block and thus lessen (but not completely shut out) the 'noise' of a telepathic 'crowd' such as people conversing telepathically in a marketplace. This requires effort (it is annoying to keep your fingers in your psychic ears constantly ...)
- Usable to communicate with one person at a time, only
- Usable to listen to one person at a time, only (several people can try to 'talk' to the receiver at once, of course, generating a lot of telepathic 'noise' and forcing the listener to try and hear one person over the din.)
- Is language dependant. One can converse telepathically in the languages he or she knows, and make crys, screeches, shouts, and other things of this sort telepathically.
- Images can be sent, but it requires extra energy to send images, and the images are only as clear as the images in the sender's mind (they are often, thus, vague or blurry)

-

In addition, the Franks have Darkvision (standard as per the latest rules.) The Darkvision works out to 60 feet, and distinguishes black and white only (hopefully, standard within the latest rules ...)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

- One can mentally block and thus lessen (but not completely shut out) the 'noise' of a telepathic 'crowd' such as people conversing telepathically in a marketplace. This requires effort (it is annoying to keep your fingers in your psychic ears constantly ...)
- Usable to communicate with one person at a time, only
- Usable to listen to one person at a time, only (several people can try to 'talk' to the receiver at once, of course, generating a lot of telepathic 'noise' and forcing the listener to try and hear one person over the din.)

Those don't seem to go well together:

While you can only speak to, and listen to, a single person, there is noise you have to drown out? So, people have to concentrate on sending to one person, and that person has to concentrate to keep other people's communication out? Sounds a bit contradictionary.

I could see it one of the following ways:

1. It's like the beam of a lantern: You talk to one person especially, but anyone near that person will get some of it, too. They can either concentrate to try and block it out (to concentrate on one person), or they can try to eavesdrop (involving listen checks or something like that). You can also "take off the lanterns hood" or "open/close the shutter" to communicate with several people standing (more or less) close together, or you can just broadcast it. You can hear any number of people, but to listen to more than one takes concentration (just like listening to several people talk at once). The better you are at the telepathy stuff, the better you are at "focussing the beam" and listening in and so on.

2. It's like talking to someone over the phone: You choose who to talk to (though it might be possible to address several specific people at once, like a conference call; and you might play radio and broadcast everything), and only those people will receive your message (again, some might be able to "tap a line".



Now, for the implications, especially for those who don't have these powers:
They're in serious trouble. If those Franks are a warlike people, they will make their enemies' life Hell on Earth. They can see in the dark, even if it's pitch black, and they can communicate without their enemies having any chance to listen in. Beyond nursery tales and predators, those poor bastards will have a real reason to fear the night. Although blinding the enemy with sudden flashes and the like might help, I don't think it will save them.

The Franks will not necessarily go for big armies, just lining up on opposing hills and charging. They will go Sam Fisher on their enemies, with silent infiltrators that can see perfectly well in the dark and can coordinate their attacks with ease, with the enemy being one the wiser. Enemies will be forced to spend considerable resources properly lighting everything, which will still be hard without magical or electrical light, and be on the lookout all the time, lest those silent bastards gang up on them and make sneak attacks with surgical precision.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Go with option 1 above.

I'm focusing on how the Darkvision and Telepathy will affect the culture of the Carolingian Empire only, though (including historically conquered territories.)

I appreciate that, given these powers, Charlemagne's people would run riot over their foes. But let's not go there yet.

Let's look at Carolingian society.
If all the Franks have telepathy (out to shouting distance, as I mentioned in my post above), how would their society alter? How would their culture alter? How would life in general alter?
How would the subjugated peoples be treated? They do not have either Darkvision or Telepathy (telepathy as described in my post above.) What is their role in this realm?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Remember that I'm trying to be as clear and concise as I can, here.
Give me some edgeroom to maneuver. I make mistakes. I make errors. Just trying to start with some sort of baseline and going from there.

Everyone and anyone who wants to: Would you please give your opinion on how the society (Charlemagne's Empire) would be altered by the Darkvision and Telepathy?
I would *really* welcome comments. Any comments. All comments. And all opinions.

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Interesting theory. Not sure I agree with it, but I see where you're coming from.

It's correlative. As primates increase in encephalization, they decrease the relative length of their total gut. If you accept metabolic demands of each tissue as a pressure that needs be overcome, it makes sense. The fossil record is merely suggestive here, seeing as we have very little soft tissue remains of our direct ancestors, but dentition changes ALSO correlate with both the suspected discovery of fire and the (importantly) SUBSEQUENT increase in brain size.

We're not talking about human society, here, though. We're talking about demihuman society. The hypothetical is not to look at where mankind is now and how it developed, but how things might have developed differently had certain aspects of physical nature been different than they are.

Sure, as I said earlier, I'm speaking from a slightly less "D&D" perspective here. But I suspect that darkvision or no, fire would still be necessary for society to form as we know it. Telepathy, actually, would probably decrease the need for fire, provided it developed prior to language. Of course, I could also now make the argument that prior to language, I'm not sure it would BE telepathy, but that's too fruity even for me.

 

[Slife]

And now, we have peasants working the fields day and night. Shops are open day and night. Taverns are open day and night. People are stuck with that 60 foot limit on Darkvision, so the social norms are all altered. Sudden lighting of torches and lanterns in someone's face is rude (it could even be a crime, in certain situations.)

Why? Normal light doesn't spoil darkvision.

 

[Zaruthustran]

The Darkvision works out to 60 feet, and distinguishes black and white only (hopefully, standard within the latest rules ...)

Here are the latest rules, so you can check for yourself:

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/carryingAndExploration.html

Specifically:

VISION AND LIGHT

Dwarves and half-orcs have darkvision, but everyone else needs light to see by. See Table: Light Sources and Illumination for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts.

In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. A creature can’t hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover.

In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength and Dexterity-based skill checks.

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters.

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

One interesting side-effect of Darkvision is that shadows do not offer concealment (the game term) from people with Darkvision, if that person is within 60'. A thief hiding in shadows will simply be clearly seen, though he'll be in black and white.

I think that, as a result, violent crime (mugging) will dramatically decrease. Possibly the same thing with property crime.

As for telepathy, right now it sounds like telepathy is the same thing as vocal communication (same limits, ranges, and so on) except there's no sound waves. So I don't think there'd be any significant changes, other than that visiting a silent city would be really weird to outsiders.

Well... maybe writing would never progress beyond heiroglyphics, since there'd be no phonetics. You can't "sound things out" with telepathy. Maybe they'd never develop spoken language (speaking takes more effort, so why develop it?) which means they'd have a real hard time communicating with outsiders, making trade less likely and war more likely. The ability to send images from one brain to another may make communicaion clearer, resulting in more efficient technological and cultural advancement (not to mention making crime investigation much easier, since eyewitnesses can beam descriptions).