Creating a Divine Spellbook

[strongbow]

I need an official ruling on divine spellbooks. This post deals with obscure rules, and has technical questions that probably infringe on the spirit of the rules. Please read and ponder, instead of flame.

I have a few questions. First, the relevant sections. (Player's Handbook 154-156)


P 156 Divine Spells, Spell Selection & Preparation Column 2, 2nd paragraph.
Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks. However, a character's spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for his class... If a domain spell is not on the Cleric Spells List, it can only be prepared in a domain slot.

P 156 Divine Magical Writings
Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can (see Arcane Magical Writings) Any character with the Spellcraft skill can attempt to decipher the divine magical writings and identify it. However, only characters who have the spell in question (in its divine form) on their class-based spell lists can cast a divine spell from a scroll.

P 156 New Divine Spells, 2nd Paragraph, Independent Research
The character also can research a spell indenpendently, much as an arcane spellcaster can... The character can create a magic scroll (provided he has the Scribe Scroll Feat) or write a special text similiar to a spellbook to contain spells he has independently researched. Other divine spellcasters who find the spell in written form can learn to cast it, provided they are of sufficient level to do so and are of the same class as the creator. The process requires deciphering the writing (see Arcane Magical Writings)

With this reference a few questions and obervations:

If a cleric wanted to learn a spell like Recitation from Defenders of the Faith, (assuming the spell was not considered on his/her base spell list), the cleric needs to find a magical writing of Recitation first.

1) Does the cleric then need to independantly research Recitation, or can he "write a special text similiar to a spellbook to contain spells"?

Following the rules under Arcane Magical Writings, it appears that it is very simple to add spells to a "divine spellbook". Following this line of reasoning for a moment:

2) How are domain spells of clerics treated with regards to a divine spellbook? Can a cleric technically research/copy into a divine spellbook other domain spells that he does not have from his domain choices? Furthermore, how are domain spells treated in general if a non-cleric divine caster wishes to add them to his list?

I see a few scenarios:

A) Open season, if its divine and of the "same class", you can copy it into a spellbook. This allows clerics to get domain spell access, and since they technically have added spells to their base list, they may prepare these spells in their base slots and not their domain slots.
B) Somewhat restricted. Clerics can get some domain spells besides their own, but must memorize them in their domain slots.
C) A cleric who copied her domain spells into a divine spellbook and then changed deities could still prepare the old domain spells from the spellbook.
D) A cleric, if given access to a non-domain only spell not normally on his/her class list, can put that spell into a divine spellbook, and prepare it without a spellbook.
E) Same as D, but only with a spellbook.
F) None of the above. Make up your own interpretation and go with it.
G) You sick fool, divine casters can't do anything except their own independent research. Nice try.

Thanks

 

[Destil]

1) As I read it, you only need the spellbook as sort of research notes when the spell is first created, not to cast and perpair the spell with. If he finds a divine spellbook with recitation he can simply learn it, but otherwise he must research it himself (creating a spellbook or scroll to do so, but that isn't needed afterwords). Note that all the work is already done with a published spell in meta game trems (just use the description from DotF for recitation, for exampel.

2) Only if the DM feels the spell is a valid non-domain spell. Typicaly, I think, spells not on the clerics spell list thus shouldn't be eliagable for becoming non-domained. Basicly, if the DM would approve the spell as a new cleric spell, it will work. If not, it shouldn't (just like a wizard can't learn a Cure Light Wounds from a bard scroll). Likewise the cleric can't lean any spell not aproved by the DM through research. The domain spell needs to be something the DM would be willing to allow as a cleric spell.

For instance, if I was running a game and someone asked me to research the domain spell Identify (knowledge) as a second level cleric spell, I'd allow it. But I wouldn't allow Stoneskin (Strength). It's up to whoever's running the game, and what they feel is apropriate.

 

[the Jester]

I pretty much agree with Destil's take on this. I wouldn't allow a cleric to research a domain spell as a general spell, though. My reasoning is that domain spells aren't cleric spells per se; they're special added bonus spells. They aren't on the cleric list- although some of them are on the cleric and domain lists just as some spells are on both the cleric and druid lists.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

my two copper pieces

Clerics don't need spellbooks. Ever. They just pray for their spells, which are provided by their patron.
The patron provides them with all the standard spells (e.g. the Stuff from the PHB). If a cleric finds a scroll with another cleric spell (e.g. somehing from defenders of the faith), he'll decipher the scroll (and maybe cast it once) and will now be able to request that spell from his patron deity. No need to keep a spellbook (or he had to keep one for the other spells).

The cleric can never learn a domain spell of a domain he has not, because they are no cleric spells. They are domain spells, and aren't on his spell list (that nonstandard cleric spell from DotF is on his spell list)

 

[strongbow]

(Bump) Any more thoughts?

 

[DreamChaser]

I fear that my comment may throw us into the house rules forum but I'll risk it.

I require clerics to create a base spell list of 13 0-level, 12 1st, 11 2nd, 10 3rd, 9 4th and so on to 4 9th. These are the spells (or rites as I call them) in their faith's canon. They can pray for these each day without special requirements because those are the one's that can be granted by proxy's of their deity.

Any other rite must be specially requested which requires a ritual costing 10 gp per spell level (5 for orisons) to request special dispensation. Depending on the rite and on the reasons, a request may be approved or denied. Requesting spells in opposition with a deity's purpose is a breach of faith require atonement.

The ritual to add a rite to the priest's canon costs 100 gp per level (50 for orisons) and the same restrictions apply. This is part of the process for researching a new rite as well. It must be completed as part of the research.

This way, the player has to set up an appropriate list of spells for his religion but doesn't have to feel hog-tied by them.

It seems to work pretty well.
DC

 

[ashockney]

My understanding of this is as follows:

Divine spellcasters can prepare spells for the day based on all the spells on their spell list. The divine spellcaster's spell list isn't limited by anything like "finding" spells or "spellbooks" because if they would ever be offered access to it, they can prepare the spell from day one.

Having said that, my interpretation is either the guy can get the spell from day one (non-domain) or he can't ever get it without doing the necessary research to develop the spell from scratch.

The question you may want to ask yourself is do you think that adding "hidden" or "sacred" divine spells to your campaign is going to add value to the play experience? I can imagine, done well, that this type of environment would be fun to play and DM in.

This is also a potential "slippery slope" however, that once you open the door, clerics might get access to "tougher" spells or "unique" spells that add flavor to other classes, which could affect the balance of play overall.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

This is also a potential "slippery slope" however, that once you open the door, clerics might get access to "tougher" spells or "unique" spells that add flavor to other classes, which could affect the balance of play overall.

No, for these spells are for the other classes alone. So you could bang the clerics head all day with a scroll with these spells on it, they'd still be unable to cast them.

 

[Artoomis]

This is also a potential "slippery slope" however, that once you open the door, clerics might get access to "tougher" spells or "unique" spells that add flavor to other classes, which could affect the balance of play overall.

What KaeYoss said, plus:

...Other divine spellcasters who find the spell in written form can learn to cast it, provided they are of sufficient level to do so and are of the same class as the creator.

 

[ashockney]

The purpose of my mentioning the "slippery slope" is more in line with spells being researched than with random spells that are found. Found spells the DM can have control over, but PC's can also research spells, and I've seen this get out of control before.