Creating magic items, movement, and min-maxing

[Amaranth]

All right, begging assistance for a few things I can't seem to decipher, and fear I'm developing tunnel vision about:

1) I have a Cleric who wants to create a +1 weapon with permanant Bless Weapon on it, and Holy Smite as a use activated effect. In other words, at his level, a 1d8 weapon that pops for an extra 5d8 against anything evil it hits. I can't find a reason why this isn't possible, but it seems somewhat rediculous. To say the least. Are Sunder, Disentigrate, and Disjunction my only real options here (barring DM over-rule)?

2) Also having problems with item costs. I've read again and again the "double the cost of secondary effects" line, but now I'm having some kooky sidebar from the end of the DMG suggesting things like only adding 10% to the cost of adding +4 dex to a +4 str belt, and worse, ways to apply theme based effects, like staffs, to other items. Am I missing something?

3) Simple question - Can you move *through* a square an ally occupies in combat? I can't find a rule for it, and tumble specifically has a roll for going through enimines squares.

4) I would also ask for and appreciate any ideas for remorselessly DM'ing for the type of twinks who take one level of Ranger, carry +1 weapons (magic weapon'd to +5) and routinely attain AC on their mages far beyond what a normal CR/level creature can hit. Sunder, Disjoin, et cetera...anything more creative?

Amaranth

 

[XCorvis]

1) Holy smite is RANGED and has an AREA EFFECT. Tell your player to stuff it. It is not reasonable to have that effect on a weapon. A staff, sure, or as a spell-storing type situation it would be fine, but as a weapon effect, forget it. I don't know if there are rules preventing it, but there should be.

2) I don't have my DMG and that doesn't appear to be in the SRD. No idea.

3) Yes. You can't stop there, tho, and you may provoke AoOs from enemies.

4) Hmmm....
1 level of ranger: take a sword of sharpness to him.
Remember greater magic weapon doesn't stack with existing bonuses. If your PCs are that high of a level, hit them with Mord's Disjunction and Greater Dispellings. Prevent them from casting spells with Silence, or maybe anti-magic fields and stuff. Have enemy mages (low level minions, preferably specialists to bump the DC) use shatter and grease a whole lot. (To break or cause weapons to drop.)

If your party is doing this kind of crap constantly, consider finding a new party. Those kinds of players can really suck the fun out of the game.

 

[shilsen]

2) Also having problems with item costs. I've read again and again the "double the cost of secondary effects" line, but now I'm having some kooky sidebar from the end of the DMG suggesting things like only adding 10% to the cost of adding +4 dex to a +4 str belt, and worse, ways to apply theme based effects, like staffs, to other items. Am I missing something?

The DMG errata changes the 10% to 100%, matching the rule about doubling the cost for scondary effects.

 

[Number47]

3) Simple question - Can you move *through* a square an ally occupies in combat? I can't find a rule for it, and tumble specifically has a roll for going through enimines squares.

Okay, let's answer this one very technically. In order to move through an enemy square without provoking an AoO, you use Tumble. The DC is, what, 25? However, if you fail the DC when attempting this, you still make it to the square you wanted, you just provoke an AoO doing so. Apply this to an ally. You attempt to Tumble through his square. You make (or don't bother) a Tumble check. You fail. You wind up on the other side of your ally. Your ally declines to take the AoO against you. The only really important thing to remember is that you only get 15 feet of Tumbling in a round. As long as it's through allies, though, should be no need to roll (or even have any ranks).

 

[Caliber]

1) I have a Cleric who wants to create a +1 weapon with permanant Bless Weapon on it, and Holy Smite as a use activated effect. In other words, at his level, a 1d8 weapon that pops for an extra 5d8 against anything evil it hits. I can't find a reason why this isn't possible, but it seems somewhat rediculous. To say the least. Are Sunder, Disentigrate, and Disjunction my only real options here (barring DM over-rule)?

I am afraid this comes down to DM-fiat. If it makes you feel better, consider that no other magic item anywhere works in this way. Another good reason for not allowing this is that there is already a weapon enhancement that does this. Its called the Holy property. It might not be mechanically equivalent, but it is obviously the same intent (whomping those Evil guys harder.)

2) Also having problems with item costs. I've read again and again the "double the cost of secondary effects" line, but now I'm having some kooky sidebar from the end of the DMG suggesting things like only adding 10% to the cost of adding +4 dex to a +4 str belt, and worse, ways to apply theme based effects, like staffs, to other items. Am I missing something?

DMG Errata changes that to 100%, like the text mentions.

3) Simple question - Can you move *through* a square an ally occupies in combat? I can't find a rule for it, and tumble specifically has a roll for going through enimines squares.

I can't cite a rule, but I am pretty certain you can. You can't stop there however. Note that you don't have to Tumble to do so.

4) I would also ask for and appreciate any ideas for remorselessly DM'ing for the type of twinks who take one level of Ranger, carry +1 weapons (magic weapon'd to +5) and routinely attain AC on their mages far beyond what a normal CR/level creature can hit. Sunder, Disjoin, et cetera...anything more creative?

My favorite tactic against people like this is to have monsters pull the same tricks against them. Dispel Magics a plenty. Several encounters a day (to make sure all those buffs are worn away by the Dispels.)

Really, there is little you can do to stop such action aside from talking to the player or imposing roleplaying requirements to all of the classes. Like, you can't be a Ranger unless you belong to the Ranger's Guild, or whatnot.

If you want ways to smash such twinks into the ground, there are lots of ways to pull it off. If you need those, I can probably think up several more.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

All right, begging assistance for a few things I can't seem to decipher, and fear I'm developing tunnel vision about:

4) I would also ask for and appreciate any ideas for remorselessly DM'ing for the type of twinks who take one level of Ranger, carry +1 weapons (magic weapon'd to +5) and routinely attain AC on their mages far beyond what a normal CR/level creature can hit. Sunder, Disjoin, et cetera...anything more creative?

Assuming that this is one character, as others noted, a targetted dispel magic or greater dispelling will do wonders. . . . Considering that GMW is going to +5, I'd also consider tossing the odd anti-magic field using baddie too.

Disarm is also a good tactic against a twin shortsword ranger. Improved Disarm plus heavy flail or Ranseur= +10 to the opposed attack roll. A True Strike spell on top of that will enable the mookiest 1/1 fighter/wizard (+34 on the opposed attack roll--+20 insight, +1 BAB, +1 weapon focus, +2 strength, +8 weapon size, +2 weapon ability) to disarm a 20th level twink. See how tough he is without his weapons. . . .

AC by itself is a slightly different matter. There's nothing wrong with a defensively oriented character and they are usually hard to hit. They're frustrating to DM for (as I've observed from both sides of the DM screen) though. One thing you can do is pound their companions to pulp and then disarm them. Alone and weaponless, such characters will soon discover the weakness of the defensive option--you generally can't dish it out either.

Alternately, you can demonstrate that no matter how defensive you are, there's someone who can hit you. Since the characters are obviously high level, try a combo of a Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian/Tribal Protector/Devoted Defender/Frenzied Beserker dual wielding a greatsword and armor spikes combined with a cleric archer with Persistent Spell (See the Smackdown thread for details--should be able to dish out above 200 points of damage per round against AC 40).

Or you could start adding class levels to above average Monster Manual creatures. A 36 point buy (instead of 15 as most monster manual critters are) awakened Dire Bear Fighter 4/Barbarian 3/Frenzied Beserker 3 who received a double empowered bull's strength (max roll, of course) and Greater Magic Fang from his druid friend should be a match for a 15th or 16th level party--especially if he has a collar of flying and some kind of Mage Armor/Shield access too.

Or a high level greater spell focussed halfling transmuter with sick dexterity, incredible intelligence, a quickened true strike spell, and disintegrate. (Of course that isn't nearly as much fun).

 

[dcollins]

1) I have a Cleric who wants to create a +1 weapon with permanant Bless Weapon on it, and Holy Smite as a use activated effect. In other words, at his level, a 1d8 weapon that pops for an extra 5d8 against anything evil it hits. I can't find a reason why this isn't possible, but it seems somewhat rediculous. To say the least. Are Sunder, Disentigrate, and Disjunction my only real options here (barring DM over-rule)?

You do not need "DM over-rule" to bar this item from your game. In fact, you need DM over-rule to allow it in your game. Any permanent item which fails to appear in the core rules item list is intrinsically a "new item" and only allowed into the game after a specific DM house-rule for it (per DMG p. 178).

 

[Amaranth]

Thank you

Very helpful in the factual area's, and some good idea's in giving the uber twinks a run for their money. I thought a bit a bit about the mace of doom, and found its achille's heel - The save for the effect is a mere 16, which is out-right pathetic to high CR creatures. I can't, for the sake of consistancy, out-right disallow the thing, but if it truly becomes a nuisance, there's always Sunder, Disjoin, Disarm and a lot of other interesting abilities to make things disappear. Any other interesting suggestions on making things go away are always appreciated.

In the end, I'm just interested in giving the players a challenge instead of a joke. I always wanted to try that naked Cleric with a stick trick, anyways...

Amaranth

 

[Coredump]

Sorry for being blunt, but I think the problem with your players.... is you. You are letting them get away with anything they want.

That weapon is way powerful, and doesn't really match other available weapons. But you feel compelled to allow it.

You complain about them taking one level of Ranger, but you allow it.

Stop allowing the things that you feel are ruining the game. I would never allow someone to take one level of something, just to get the rules benefits. They have to find someone to train them, and they can just tell there is no real intent to learn, or whatever....

Stop complaining about them, and start doing something about it. If you stop these things from the start, you may keep the game from becoming an 'us vs DM' campaign.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Just make the mace Holy (+2d6 damage vs Evil). It's a lot easier than working out a fair price for unlimited Holy Smites.

Geoff.