hunter1828
Butte Hole Surfer
Just providing a place to continue the discussion if anyone is so inclined since we hijacked Afrodyte's thread, again...
Creativity of gamers vs. non-gamers
- Thread starter hunter1828
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hunter1828
Butte Hole Surfer
I've been gaming for 25 years. In that time I have met more than my fair share of gamers that:
Could not even total their attack roles without using a calculator.
Could not come up with a plot idea/character background without blatantly ripping off a movie, novel, or comic book.
Could not role-play in any true sense other than saying "I swing my [insert random weapon]!"
And those are just three of the things I've experienced. There has been much worse. Like the guy who told me that his male human character will rape any female character with a charisma of 16 or better. Real creative. I got up and walked out of that game.
How many Drizzt clones are there in various games? Elric clones? Conan clones? Frodo? Tons. Not very creative. It's fine to borrow from your favorite movies, books and comics, but too many people just change a name and run with that. Not very creative.
There are, of course, exceptions. There are many, many, many fine, creative, intelligent players and DMs. I've met my fair share of them, too. I miss playing with some of them. But I'm not so sure, after 25 years, that they actually outnumber the others. They might be equal in numbers, but I don't think they truly outnumber them.
hunter1828
Could not even total their attack roles without using a calculator.
Could not come up with a plot idea/character background without blatantly ripping off a movie, novel, or comic book.
Could not role-play in any true sense other than saying "I swing my [insert random weapon]!"
And those are just three of the things I've experienced. There has been much worse. Like the guy who told me that his male human character will rape any female character with a charisma of 16 or better. Real creative. I got up and walked out of that game.
How many Drizzt clones are there in various games? Elric clones? Conan clones? Frodo? Tons. Not very creative. It's fine to borrow from your favorite movies, books and comics, but too many people just change a name and run with that. Not very creative.
There are, of course, exceptions. There are many, many, many fine, creative, intelligent players and DMs. I've met my fair share of them, too. I miss playing with some of them. But I'm not so sure, after 25 years, that they actually outnumber the others. They might be equal in numbers, but I don't think they truly outnumber them.
hunter1828
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Aust Diamondew
First Post
I agree completely. Some of my players have difficulty adding up 15+25 in their heads, and they've played a while. On the other hand becuase of D&D I have uber basic math skills.
Feathercircle
First Post
Don't blame the Drizzt clones... it's not entirely their fault, at least not all the time!
One of the pc races in my campaign are these sort of not-drow dark elves... and both of the people who have played them have played rangers... and these people are the ONLY two people who have created ranger characters..
The thing is, these two people are totally new to D&D.. they know absolutely nothing about anything. They wouldn't know Drizzt from Elminster if their life depended on it! And yet, all of the rangers are dark elves, and all of the dark elves are rangers..
I'm blaming it on some sort of cosmic conspiracy. At one point I got a little frustrated at it all, and created one myself as an NPC... his name is Yader, short for "Yet Another Dark Elf Ranger".
One of the pc races in my campaign are these sort of not-drow dark elves... and both of the people who have played them have played rangers... and these people are the ONLY two people who have created ranger characters..
The thing is, these two people are totally new to D&D.. they know absolutely nothing about anything. They wouldn't know Drizzt from Elminster if their life depended on it! And yet, all of the rangers are dark elves, and all of the dark elves are rangers..
I'm blaming it on some sort of cosmic conspiracy. At one point I got a little frustrated at it all, and created one myself as an NPC... his name is Yader, short for "Yet Another Dark Elf Ranger".
MarauderX
Explorer
I think players get stuck in a rut, mostly due to restrictions created by the rules. Some things that I like to hear, ever since OD&D:
"I run and go to tackle him to the ground"
"I try to hack his hand off"
"I pick him up off the ground"
"I grab his weapon and I want to wrestle it out of his hands"
"I toss the beer in my tankard at his face"
I think a lot of gamers copy what they have seen before them, and if something 'creative' doesn't work, they don't use it. I know DMs tend to squash tricky attempts that aren't written in the rules by making the player roll 3, 4, 5 more checks than if they just attacked, so as a player why would you risk the extra chances of something going wrong? Besides, when has knocking your foe to the ground not solved a situation?
As far as plots, it may just have to do with the experience of the DM, but it could be that the DM doesn't want to handle anything complicated so he won't throw in plot hooks or have any tangents for the players to resolve. For situations where players are creative I like to give bonuses like crazy even if a plot line may get screwed up. Once the other players get the hint that they can do new things, they will try it too.
"I run and go to tackle him to the ground"
"I try to hack his hand off"
"I pick him up off the ground"
"I grab his weapon and I want to wrestle it out of his hands"
"I toss the beer in my tankard at his face"
I think a lot of gamers copy what they have seen before them, and if something 'creative' doesn't work, they don't use it. I know DMs tend to squash tricky attempts that aren't written in the rules by making the player roll 3, 4, 5 more checks than if they just attacked, so as a player why would you risk the extra chances of something going wrong? Besides, when has knocking your foe to the ground not solved a situation?
As far as plots, it may just have to do with the experience of the DM, but it could be that the DM doesn't want to handle anything complicated so he won't throw in plot hooks or have any tangents for the players to resolve. For situations where players are creative I like to give bonuses like crazy even if a plot line may get screwed up. Once the other players get the hint that they can do new things, they will try it too.
Desdichado
Legend
That's exactly what I've been trying to say. Yes, D&D is self-selecting, but I think interest in the fantasy genre is the factor that's selected for. The idea that we select for creativity or intelligence is, I believe, simply a conceit of gamers. We'd like to think that's true (collectively), but I don't believe it.
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Djeta Thernadier
First Post
I don't know that math skills = creativity. I consider myself to be a very creative person, however, I have had a severe learning disability with math since I was in elementary school.
However, I know some gamers who are more in it for hack n slash and not creative when it comes to their characters. On the other hand, I know non gamers who are brilliant , creative and more open minded than some of the gamers I know (see Pat Lewis' link in my sig quote).
So , I don't think there is really a connection. I do however, have a bias where I sort of assume gamers are going to accept me more than non-gamers, who sometimes question the hobby.
DT
However, I know some gamers who are more in it for hack n slash and not creative when it comes to their characters. On the other hand, I know non gamers who are brilliant , creative and more open minded than some of the gamers I know (see Pat Lewis' link in my sig quote).
So , I don't think there is really a connection. I do however, have a bias where I sort of assume gamers are going to accept me more than non-gamers, who sometimes question the hobby.
DT
bekkilyn_rpg
First Post
D&D is a creative hobby so it likely does attract a number of creative people, but there's a lot of other creative hobbies out there as well. I have varied interests so have frequented and lurked on a number of messageboards dedicated to various things and nearly every single one of those groups feel that they have a pretty good handle on creativity as well and that the 'average' population finds them to be strange for being so very dedicated to something they enjoy so very much.
However, in every one of these same groups and including D&D groups, there's a large number of people who play for various other reasons and care nothing whatsoever for exploring creative outlets.
However, in every one of these same groups and including D&D groups, there's a large number of people who play for various other reasons and care nothing whatsoever for exploring creative outlets.
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