D&D General Creativity?

Pedantic

Legend
@Pedantic

Player Agency (amount, kind) is a different question altogether. Right now we're examining (what I have taken as) your claim it is not necessary for players to index the imagined space before they declare an action. That was why I wrote out the post the way I did; to examine that issue.

If we were talking about Player Agency, I would have written the post quite differently and broken out the back-and-forth of conversation + the action/conflict resolution mechanics involved + considerations in play (thematic, tactical, strategic, resource management, risk assessment, advancement, etc) + the consequence-space that the GM is putting forth (of which the players will be dealing with contingent upon their charted course of action). But all those things aren't necessary when we're just examining the bolded claim above.

And for what its worth, even without playing with you I do peg you as an extreme simulation guy! I think I've got a pretty solid grip on the cognitive space you're working within (both when you play and in these conversations) because its a widely held one, a widely expressed one, and I've certainly run games for players similarly positioned quite a bit! Also, unrelated, I don't agree with your assessment of simulation as an input and output and constraint upon play. Its a lot deeper than that (one seminal component is a particular type of GM mental modeling and extrapolation of setting and situation with players working to suss out that GM's mental model and extrapolations and "solve it"). I also disagree with you about Player Agency in conflict resolution (either Dogs or 4e D&D), but, again...another matter entirely! For now, lets examine the bolded claim above.
Okay, so I think the crux of our argument is that you're casting any action declaration as a negotiation, I'm saying that there is no need for negotiation, just requests for information before you select an appropriate action.

I understand where this position comes from, the argument that there is not in fact a completely detailed world that exists in full in the GM's mind, which I'll concede is a limitation of the format, but still our best technology for doing this kind of thing, certainly an improvement over video games.

What I generally object to is treating that imperfection as a ground for mechanical design. Actions should do what they say they do, and armed with the scenario, gameplay emerges from picking the best action for the situation. There is backwards translation of a player described course of action to a mechanic, the mechanic is what the player is selecting outright.
 

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What I generally object to is treating that imperfection as a ground for mechanical design. Actions should do what they say they do, and armed with the scenario, gameplay emerges from picking the best action for the situation. There is backwards translation of a player described course of action to a mechanic, the mechanic is what the player is selecting outright.

I don't disagree here. But what I'll say is that the game system and GM should both be well aware of (a) exactly what they're trying to do, (b) the limits of human computing power and mental bandwidth when it comes to modeling complex systems and extrapolating, (c) the limits of the ability of the participants at the table to transcribe their mental models and extrapolations into a mutually shared and mutually understood User Interface for the imagined space.

I'm running 4 games right now. Each and everyone of those games can feature a climbing conflict (as its within the purview of these games) but they all handle such a conflict differently. I'm the only climber among them.

What do you think would happen if I started talking about "developing beta," "this route starts as an underhang with equal parts slopers and underclings and the crux involves a heel hook and a big dino where you have to immediately flag right on the catch or you'll barn door", "but this other route is like a V7 slab...very crimpy so you're apt to get pumped and fail but if you can find a knee bar halfway through you can maybe rest" or I started talking about gear and the intricacies of belaying.

I'm confident I could develop an engaging climbing conflict resolution system and run that with the fellow friends I have who are climbers. Or Brazillian Jiujitsu. But folks who aren't acquainted with the consequential intricacies of the decision-space and consequences around climbing and grappling (both things that are common in a game like D&D!)? Its gibberish. Its gibberish because their is a mental model mismatch happening. So we have to bridge that mental model mismatch. That is what abstraction is for. You build out a system that does the necessary work of abstracting the intricate decision-space of such things and you devise techniques and principles for GMs (such as loading out the players with multiple possible courses to chart, replete with divergent obstacles that each have their own unique consequence-space for players to mull and fold into their cognitive loop).

The above is why I'm hugely skeptical of the approach of suss out and Game the GM's conception and extrapolation of a complex (and dynamically interacting) system. I'm skeptical at all layers of it; the GM's mental modelling > the GM's extrapolation > the participants expertise > the collective communication/transcription of the varying complexities > the player's sussing. There are so many failure points along the way.

So intentful, rigorous systemization that abstracts all that is necessary while aiming for retention of "the core components" of the thing while suffering as little information loss as possible (while also accepting there is going to be a fairly good-sized chunk) + GM's being humble and disciplined in their technical execution of the game's play loop + player's being aware of "the game's meta" and playing hard.

But the whole thing, from start to finish, requires significant self-awareness and transparency (which is why my games are all as table-facing as games can be).
 

Pedantic

Legend
I don't disagree here. But what I'll say is that the game system and GM should both be well aware of (a) exactly what they're trying to do, (b) the limits of human computing power and mental bandwidth when it comes to modeling complex systems and extrapolating, (c) the limits of the ability of the participants at the table to transcribe their mental models and extrapolations into a mutually shared and mutually understood User Interface for the imagined space.

I'm running 4 games right now. Each and everyone of those games can feature a climbing conflict (as its within the purview of these games) but they all handle such a conflict differently. I'm the only climber among them.

What do you think would happen if I started talking about "developing beta," "this route starts as an underhang with equal parts slopers and underclings and the crux involves a heel hook and a big dino where you have to immediately flag right on the catch or you'll barn door", "but this other route is like a V7 slab...very crimpy so you're apt to get pumped and fail but if you can find a knee bar halfway through you can maybe rest" or I started talking about gear and the intricacies of belaying.

I'm confident I could develop an engaging climbing conflict resolution system and run that with the fellow friends I have who are climbers. Or Brazillian Jiujitsu. But folks who aren't acquainted with the consequential intricacies of the decision-space and consequences around climbing and grappling (both things that are common in a game like D&D!)? Its gibberish. Its gibberish because their is a mental model mismatch happening. So we have to bridge that mental model mismatch. That is what abstraction is for. You build out a system that does the necessary work of abstracting the intricate decision-space of such things and you devise techniques and principles for GMs (such as loading out the players with multiple possible courses to chart, replete with divergent obstacles that each have their own unique consequence-space for players to mull and fold into their cognitive loop).

The above is why I'm hugely skeptical of the approach of suss out and Game the GM's conception and extrapolation of a complex (and dynamically interacting) system. I'm skeptical at all layers of it; the GM's mental modelling > the GM's extrapolation > the participants expertise > the collective communication/transcription of the varying complexities > the player's sussing. There are so many failure points along the way.

So intentful, rigorous systemization that abstracts all that is necessary while aiming for retention of "the core components" of the thing while suffering as little information loss as possible (while also accepting there is going to be a fairly good-sized chunk) + GM's being humble and disciplined in their technical execution of the game's play loop + player's being aware of "the game's meta" and playing hard.

But the whole thing, from start to finish, requires significant self-awareness and transparency (which is why my games are all as table-facing as games can be).
This is precisely why I clarified that I am not a particularly strong adherent of simulation as a design goal, just a reasonable outcome. It is far less important that the climbing roles adequately model actual real world climbing, as they provide a good enough abstraction for the genre norms at play, that they're broad enough to resolve any situation involving climbing likely to come up in the game, and that they provide meaningful actions for players to take.

The important thing is that those rules translate to specific changes to the game state. Not "your character is an expert climber" but "you move vertically at Y speed." That then becomes a move players can make, and that RPG design seems determined to abandon actually writing that down so a player can read it before they try to climb something is my single biggest source of frustration with the state of the industry.
 

I dunno...without even trying to I'd probably break it within 30 minutes of my character entering play. If I were actively trying to break it, reduce that time to under 5 minutes.
Well, obviously if someone were approaching the game in bad faith they can break any game, so lets simply assume that you play with integrity. I don't think you will break DW in that case, period. I mean, there's a wide area of "I'm trying, but this isn't working for me" of course. So you might decide the game is 'broken' from your perspective, but as long as you play, which just means having the conversation with the rest of the table and following the rules when they say something, you really cannot break DW.

The reason is simple, its not a contest! I mean, sure, its great if your character survives, gets a bunch of XP and goes up a level. I won't say that isn't a goal, but as a player your rationale for avoiding death is simply "I'm in character, and generally speaking, my character will try to avoid death." Part of why this is so is that your PC has a role to play in the world, and there is more to them than simply 6 ability scores, a race, class, and gender. They have an ethos, bonds, and most likely some other more concrete goals, connections, etc. Yes, throwing away all of that simply to pursue loot and power is fine, if that's how you see your PC then go for it. You the player, OTOH are just talking; you can talk about how your character cuts a path through 100 orcs, or about how he spits in the face of death as they surround him and hack him to bits. One isn't better than the other...

Finally, DW is a VERY narrative game, on the level of classic D&D. You, the player, say fiction, and the GM says "OK, that's 'Acting Despite Imminent Threat', roll Defy Danger. How do you exploit that? How do you break that process? It isn't clear to me how that would even happen. I know of exactly ZERO players (and I play with some pretty clever people) who have figured that out! You can dispute every move declaration I do or do not make as GM, and try to convince the table to see it your way, but its going to be flamingly obvious real fast that you're not playing in good faith if you do that. Obviously you can try to 'play the GM', but at some point the above question, WHY?, arises...
Except doesn't Dungeon World have a GM,and isn't that GM supposed to be enforcing some rules (or principles of play, same thing really)?
The DW GM is BOUND by an agenda, and instructed to run the game by utilizing certain principles, yes. They also have their own 'moves', though I would generally consider GM moves to be more akin to standard techniques than anything else. The most binding ones would be things like Monster Moves where a specific monster is provided with some sort of ability or something in the form of a move. Monsters/NPCs also generally have certain 'instincts' that describe what they do, what their shtick is, so the GM is going to generally be bound to play to those things. The players are simply told to play their characters, and given a description of what the game genre generally holds. Your PC also probably has an agenda, definitely has custom moves, and may have specific goals, etc. at any given time. The player's job is simply to tell the GM what the PC tries to do, and to say other fictional stuff when the rules tell you to (like you may be asked to explain how you know something, or the GM might simply ask you a question about the world or your own backstory, you have to say something at those times). As a player, those fiction statements can obviously be made in a way that is advantageous to the character's interests. That's fine, part of the GM's principles includes "Be a fan of the characters" for example, so its not an opposition type of game. The GM can always find a way to complicate things for you, and challenge you, that is something the rules say they MUST do. A hard move hurts you, doesn't matter how powerful you are!
 

Okay, so I think the crux of our argument is that you're casting any action declaration as a negotiation, I'm saying that there is no need for negotiation, just requests for information before you select an appropriate action.

I understand where this position comes from, the argument that there is not in fact a completely detailed world that exists in full in the GM's mind, which I'll concede is a limitation of the format, but still our best technology for doing this kind of thing, certainly an improvement over video games.

What I generally object to is treating that imperfection as a ground for mechanical design. Actions should do what they say they do, and armed with the scenario, gameplay emerges from picking the best action for the situation. There is backwards translation of a player described course of action to a mechanic, the mechanic is what the player is selecting outright.
You are assuming a specific type of game design here, which is far from all RPGS! Try some PbtA game or other, its not like this.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Though, really, if you're going to do that...why continue to have the save-or-die/save-or-suck spells?

I mean, for one thing, because they still work.

They aren't actually doing anything, because a 20% chance to make the enemy suck for a while is a spell no one will ever cast.

I mean, first of all, there speaks the voice of inexperience. But secondly, if it really was a 20% chance to end or win a combat on the spot, that would still be pretty darn good.

Wouldn't it be better to cut out these chaff spells that simply can't be made to work properly (because if they work reliably, they're broken, and if they're unreliable, they're pointless)? Then, instead, try to build spells that induce tactical choices simply by...working as advertised?

Depends on what you are going for. If your primary goal is balanced gameplay with uniform spotlight sharing and facilitating challenging gameplay then maybe. But if your primary goal is to simulate the magic of story and fairy tale, then absolutely you don't cut down the spell list because your more interested in a setting where wizards do big flashy things and work wonders and miracles than you are in only whether or not you are achieving some easy to see balance between classes.

It just seems really weird to consider it a fully satisfactory result that the game is chock-full of either pointless or overpowered options. Because that was the real underlying problem of 3e. It wasn't PrCs; that they went wrong was a symptom, not the disease. The actual disease is that it presumes that it is a perfectly logical and internally self-consistent system, but it is only the former, not the latter. It's extremely good at pretending to be self-consistent, though, which is why people actually enjoy playing it (a system that is obviously not self-consistent is usually not enjoyable, as people realize that whatever you achieve with it is trivial and thus not very satisfying.)

Fundamentally, as a guy that has ran 3e for a very long time, your PTSD from whatever bad game experiences you've had and the resulting chip on your shoulder about it just doesn't interest me much. If you want to talk about 3e in some sort of constructive manner, then I'm all for it. But if this is just going to be thinly disguised edition warring, then I'm not interested. I don't agree with you - 3e has some warts, but it is at a fundamental level the best designed edition of the game. Enjoy your DW.
 


The important thing is that those rules translate to specific changes to the game state. Not "your character is an expert climber" but "you move vertically at Y speed." That then becomes a move players can make, and that RPG design seems determined to abandon actually writing that down so a player can read it before they try to climb something is my single biggest source of frustration with the state of the industry.
Sure, but lets take Dungeon World, as the go-to for describing PbtA games. The engine isn't really primarily designed around quantified elements, like how far you climbed, or if you can jump over a 20' wide chasm. Instead it is quantified in terms of when you get to achieve the intent of your action (or at least a proximate part of it) and when you don't, with most PC moves involving some limitation or consequence (IE unless you roll 10+). So, if you decide to climb up the icy cliff, the GM can say you acted despite the imminent threat of falling to your death, make a Defy Danger move! OK, you rolled an 8, you are hanging by one hand and your pack is tangled in your other arm, you can shed it and continue to the top, or fall... No quantification there, but a definite SCOPE to a move.

Now, DW, interestingly, does offer SOME quantifications. You have damage dice, and monsters have hit points. You can say "I stab it with my steely knife" and roll a 10+, you do d10 damage (IE if you are a barbarian) to your foe! Maybe it dies, maybe it doesn't. So PbtA don't have to absolutely follow one design concept, but most moves do work that way. It just happens that combat is a centerpiece of DW, so they layered in damage, hit points, armor, etc. A detective game using a PbtA design might simply make 'you killed him' a simple discrete result, since it isn't the focus of "The Modern Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" or whatever.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I mean, for one thing, because they still work.

I mean, first of all, there speaks the voice of inexperience. But secondly, if it really was a 20% chance to end or win a combat on the spot, that would still be pretty darn good.
If I have two actions, one of which is pretty much guaranteed to make concrete actual progress, and one of which has an 80% chance to do literally nothing, I'm going to take the concrete progress--and in essentially all contexts, that's what you should take.

Especially because for the vast, vast, vast majority of these spells, it's not "20% chance to end the fight." It's "20% chance to make the fight much easier." But killing/incapacitating one thing reliably is almost always more progress than having an 80% chance of doing absolutely screw-all.

Depends on what you are going for. If your primary goal is balanced gameplay with uniform spotlight sharing and facilitating challenging gameplay then maybe.
Not uniform, and not spotlight. I absolutely despise "spotlight" balance. It is the most effective deceptive design goal ever conceived. It hoodwinks designers everywhere into thinking their games work in ways they demonstrably won't once people actually start playing. People throw around the phrase "white room theorizing" with casual abandon, but "spotlight" balance literally is a pure-theory concept that actively clashes with how real people play games.

In being a cooperative role-playing game, the game should be equitable (each of the participants contributes approximately the same amount to the group, allowing for statistical spread) and functional (each of the participants always has something meaningful to contribute, even if it isn't the most meaningful thing one could contribute.) Uniformity is the worst, least-interesting, least-effective form of equitable game design. It should be avoided unless there is no other alternative, or the place it is being used is so fundamental that uniformity provides some other kind of value to offset its negative qualities. The unified d20 mechanic, for example, is a place where the advantage of consistency is extremely strong, and where the fact that everyone does things the same way is not a problem, because it's used to facilitate other things, not as an end in and of itself.

But if your primary goal is to simulate the magic of story and fairy tale, then absolutely you don't cut down the spell list because your more interested in a setting where wizards do big flashy things and work wonders and miracles than you are in only whether or not you are achieving some easy to see balance between classes.
Except that, again, all these allegedly "big flashy things and work wonders and miracles" won't happen in play, or will be the ONLY thing that happens in play, because dominant strategy is a thing.

You can still have wizards who work wonders and miracles if you design the game to actually support that. D&D has, historically, been absolute garbage at actually doing that, because either magic is THE solution and everything else is nearly-pointless window-dressing, or magic is about as effective as a wet fart and you're forced to use mundane solutions.

But we can do better. We can design games that have wonders and mundane solutions. It will be hard! Any good game design should be hard, because if it were easy we'd almost surely have done it by now. (This is why it is impressive to develop new simple mechanics that are good game design, e.g. 13A's Escalation Die--they almost always represent a new perspective or clever thought not previously considered.)

Fundamentally, as a guy that has ran 3e for a very long time, your PTSD from whatever bad game experiences you've had and the resulting chip on your shoulder about it just doesn't interest me much. If you want to talk about 3e in some sort of constructive manner, then I'm all for it. But if this is just going to be thinly disguised edition warring, then I'm not interested. I don't agree with you - 3e has some warts, but it is at a fundamental level the best designed edition of the game. Enjoy your DW.
At a fundamental level, it literally allows you to produce nigh-infinite loops and do utterly ridiculous things like self-bootstrapping spellcasting. It allows things like the "locate city bomb," the aggressively hegemonizing ursine swarm (aka Druid with Natural Spell, a PHB-only character!), DMM cheese, and all sorts of other nonsense. Or, y'know, just the Leadership feat, all by itself, the feat almost every 3e DM bans because it's stupidly overpowered.

Yes, the idea of "roll 1d20+modifiers" is functional, and components like BAB are useful (though iterative attacks, not so much), but by the time you've stripped 3e down to the parts that actually work consistently, you've removed effectively everything that makes it a game. You have to overhaul feats, classes, ACFs, spells, magic items, monsters (especially templates), races, and even to a certain extent the mundane equipment. Keep in mind, 3e is the edition where a 10' ladder is less expensive than two 10' poles...so you can literally generate infinite wealth purely by buying 10' ladders, stripping off the rungs, and selling the two 10' poles that result.

It was designed to be naturalistic. Unfortunately, in the hands of even a moderately clever player using the PHB only, it quickly produces anti-naturalistic results. This is not about edition warring, or at least that isn't my intent. I get, very much, that there's a large chunk of players who adore naturalistic design and who feel that no other edition of D&D has successfully pursued it. But 3e is a bad example of naturalistic design. There are zillions of ways to make a better game while still keeping it naturalistic. I freely recognize that naturalism isn't one of my key concerns (for me, it's groundedness, which is a very different beast; unnatural things can be quite grounded if they properly establish their precedents.) But even for someone who does prioritize naturalism, you can (and IMO should) ask for much better than what 3e offers.
 
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Pedantic

Legend
Sure, but lets take Dungeon World, as the go-to for describing PbtA games. The engine isn't really primarily designed around quantified elements, like how far you climbed, or if you can jump over a 20' wide chasm. Instead it is quantified in terms of when you get to achieve the intent of your action (or at least a proximate part of it) and when you don't, with most PC moves involving some limitation or consequence (IE unless you roll 10+). So, if you decide to climb up the icy cliff, the GM can say you acted despite the imminent threat of falling to your death, make a Defy Danger move! OK, you rolled an 8, you are hanging by one hand and your pack is tangled in your other arm, you can shed it and continue to the top, or fall... No quantification there, but a definite SCOPE to a move.
To be fair, my gripe in that last line was a lot less to do with PbtA and similar systems a lot more to do with "Very Easy, Easy, Medium, Hard, Very Hard" and "a level 16 challenge," instead of actual DCs that list the effect one gets if you achieve them.

I am not confused about the structure of PbtA games. I'm proposing that the loop they present isn't fundamental to playing a TTRPG, and that you could (and I would contend, it would be good to do so) design an RPG where you would apply the exact same modes of thought you bring to a board game.

This is why I started in bringing in questions of agency and gameplay earlier. What is the decision I can make there that is better than some other decision? What action should I be declaring that will increase my odds of success at whatever my actual goal is (say, lighting a signal beacon on top of that mountain) and minimize my chances of failure? Can I, given the moves in that game, chart a course of action that will leave my goal achieved, my character less hurt, and present the least new complications before I go declare my next goal, and can some other player mess it up horribly by making the same choices poorly, given the same character to work with? Better, can they do so without making any obviously, comically bad decisions, and can another player, given the same character, make a compelling argument for a different series of choices than the ones I made as a better line of play?

Generally speaking, I'm suspicious of any mechanic that asks me to declare my intent, because that sounds exactly like the system is going to now try and subvert it. That might just be my established board gaming suspicion talking, where you're either playing against a game state that can't use that information, or an opponent who will use it against you.
 
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