Creature by Poll #7 - Dragon Discussion!

[Conaill]

CRs, the Wyrmling LA.
The class skills for our dragon.

Oops. That might explain why I didn't notice. I just did a quick side-by-side comparison, and all of the paragraphs seemed identical. Good job with the CR's. Not sure how you came up with those, or with the wymling's LA, but I'll gladly take your word on it. BTW, I think the rules is that only creatures with an ECL of 20 or lower should have an LA, so "others -" is correct.

How about "[font=&quot]These dragons seem to be attracted to planar magic and magic items, but for some reasons, they are never found in the hoard of the XXX. Many sages believe that they feed on these items, but those sages that believe the rumor of the dead dragon god ascribe this attraction a far darker purpose."[/font]

I was hoping for something more mechanism-wise, rather than just a rumor. Could make this dragon a real PITA, just like the rustmonster is for lower level parties. Heck, its hoard could consist of all those items that were contained in the portable holes and bag of holdings it's eaten.

I think multiplanar rift could be dropped in favor of Shed Skin. I'm not sure if I ever could word Multiplanar Rift in as few words as the ability warrants.

So how about we adopt the "Shed Skin" above, and add the following line: "[font=&quot]At Old age, the XXX learns to manifest as an Astral Rift on a different transitive plane after shedding its skin."[/font] If you want, we can also add that the Teleport and Plane Shift spells behave the same way for the dragon, minus the shedding of its skin: its body stays on the Astral, only its Astral Rift manifestation moves.

Numeric details of the Shed Skin power are definitely up for discussion. I just picked some values that might make stalking and hunting a creature like this not *entirely* impossible. A 9th level party with access to Teleport could conceivably chase it around until Shed Skin becomes prohibitively expensive for the dragon. At 5d6 per previous shedding per week, a Very Young (CR 9) dragon could shed its skin no more than four times in a week if it's simply trying to outrun the party.

Even without access to Teleport, the party could theoretically follow the dragon by jumping through the decaying Astral Rift it left behind. They'll wind up in the Astral Plane, but in the neighborhood of the Dragon itself. Or the adventurers' goal might simply be to force the dragon to flee by shedding its skin, followed perhaps by something as simple as Gentle Repose to preserve the "skin" as a component for a Gate item.


PS: Do we need to add a new Tumble DC to jump *through* a creature without provoking AoO's? Or would the DC 25 "tumble through an area occupied by an enemy" suffice? I don't think we want to make this *too* hard, since it's a pretty cool tactic to use.

 

[Knight Otu]

Good job with the CR's. Not sure how you came up with those, or with the wymling's LA, but I'll gladly take your word on it. BTW, I think the rules is that only creatures with an ECL of 20 or lower should have an LA, so "others -" is correct.

Well, the general rule is that LAs are only given if they don't result in an epic ECL, but these LAs can still exist. The question marks were more a "Does this look about right for the wyrmlig?", as it is quite high. Then again, the wyrmling also deserves a high LA.
The CRs are based on Upper_Krust's work, but I reduced the final results a bit.

I was hoping for something more mechanism-wise, rather than just a rumor. Could make this dragon a real PITA, just like the rustmonster is for lower level parties. Heck, its hoard could consist of all those items that were contained in the portable holes and bag of holdings it's eaten.

Even more of a PITA than it is now?

So how about we adopt the "Shed Skin" above, and add the following line: "[font=&quot]At Old age, the XXX learns to manifest as an Astral Rift on a different transitive plane after shedding its skin."[/font] If you want, we can also add that the Teleport and Plane Shift spells behave the same way for the dragon, minus the shedding of its skin: its body stays on the Astral, only its Astral Rift manifestation moves.

I don't know if that's a good idea. I'd say use one or the other, but not combine the two.

PS: Do we need to add a new Tumble DC to jump *through* a creature without provoking AoO's? Or would the DC 25 "tumble through an area occupied by an enemy" suffice? I don't think we want to make this *too* hard, since it's a pretty cool tactic to use.

I think that using the occupied area rule should suffice for that.

 

[Conaill]

The question marks were more a "Does this look about right for the wyrmlig?", as it is quite high. Then again, the wyrmling also deserves a high LA.
The CRs are based on Upper_Krust's work, but I reduced the final results a bit.

Sounds about right at first sight, but I have to admit I don't have much experience assigning ECL's that are this high. A +10 LA would put the wyrmling on par with a young red dragon (13 HD + 6 LA). It has a much lower BAB and AC, but it's damage is nastier and harder to avoid, and the incorporeality probably more than makes up for the AC. That's about as far as my intuition goes.

Even more of a PITA than it is now?

Well, if you prefer to have it a little less explicit exactly what the dragon does with these items, we could add an ability similar to the Gold Dragon's Detect Gems (Sp):

"Detect Planar Items (Sp): An old or older XXX can use this ability three times per day. This is a divination effect similar to a detect magic spell, except that it finds only magic items that have Gate, Planar Shift or Secret Chest as one of their item creation spell prerequisites (this includes bags of holding, portable holes, ring gates, etc.). The dragon can scan a 60-degree arc each round: By concentrating for 1 round it knows if there are any such items within the arc; 2 rounds of concentration reveal the exact number of items; and 3 rounds reveal their exact location, type, and value. This ability is the equivalent of a 2nd level spell."

I don't know if that's a good idea. I'd say use one or the other, but not combine the two.

I just thought one was a natural extension of the other. You use exactly the same mechanism, just go to a different plane than the Material.

Eh, if you prefer we can just have the Shed Skin ability. Note that at Old age, it does gain access to both Teleport and Plane Shift as spells anyway, due to its CL 9 (casting Plane Shift as a Clr5 spell). That's conveniently the same level where you put Multiplanar Rift. (We may still need to add some language somewhere on how those spells work for a creature such as this.)

I think that using the occupied area rule should suffice for that.

That's what I thought. Do you think we need to mention that explicitly? "Any object or creature entering the rift is sucked into the Astral plane (Tumble check DC 25 to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity while moving through an area occupied by an enemy, see the Tumble skill description).

 

[Knight Otu]

OK, let's try to keep it to cleanup this time.

I'll delete the older attachments sometime tomorrow, so if you want to keep them....

 

[Conaill]

Looks good. (Apart from another four "it's -> its" typos I introduced in the Shed Skin paragraph )

Do you think we need the extra standard action in the Astral Rift section? That's kinda like the old 3.0 Haste, and could be very powerful. The "fundamentally different" clause could be up for interpretation as well.

If we think of it as standing inside of a doorway, there's no real reason why it should be able to get one attack on each side of the doorway. Sure, the dragon might be at a slight disadvantage because you could gang up on it on both planes, but for the standard 4-PC party that's irrelevant. At worst you could place twice as many opponents around it, but that's the same thing as would happen with a size increase anyway (bigger footprint - more chance to be flanked). And for an incorporeal flying critter, I don't think that's something we need to worry about anyway.

 

[Knight Otu]

The extra action was somewhat to allow it to act on both sides, yes. Otherwise, it would be inactive on one side or the other... but in retrospect, it could be reduced to a move action, rather than a standard action.

Naming time? I'll go ahead and say yes. Considering the huge amount of posters p), I'll give each the option to suggest up to three names. Mine would be:

Void Dragon
Un-Dragon
Non-Dragon

I think the name with the highest name will be the formal name, and one or two runner-ups will be "other common names".

 

[Conaill]

The extra action was somewhat to allow it to act on both sides, yes. Otherwise, it would be inactive on one side or the other... but in retrospect, it could be reduced to a move action, rather than a standard action.

I agree that it should be able to change its position on both planes simultaneously, but "move action" would also include a bunch of other things, such as directing active spells (e.g. move a flaming sphere on both planes), moving, retrieving or picking up items, etc. I'm not sure it should be able to those things on both sides simultaneously.

How about this:

"The XXX may split its actions across both planes freely, including possibly making multiple attacks on both planes using a full attack. In addition, any time the XXX moves on one plane (including 5' step, charge and normal movement), it may simultaneously move up to the same distance (in an arbitrary direction) on the other plane."

That way it could charge on one plane and move into position on the other, or take 2 attacks and a 5' step on both planes (assuming it gets 4 attacks on a full attack). Quite a bit less powerful than the current version, so that may affect the CR.

Naming... "Rift Dragon" or "Astral Rift Dragon" would be my top choices.

 

[Knight Otu]

That might work, though I'd also like the option of having the dragon remain still on one plane while moving on the other... How about:

"The XXX may split its actions across both planes freely, including possibly making multiple attacks on both planes using a full attack. In addition, any time the XXX could move on one plane (including 5' step, charge and normal movement), it may simultaneously move (in any direction) on the other plane."

 

[Conaill]

More or less the same. Moving on one plane while remaining still on the other was already included in mine as well, because the dragon could split his move action +standard action across two planes. E.g. it could move on one plane, and cast a stilled spell on the other. No extra movement needed in that case.

Your latest version only removes the distance restriction on the additional move, which might be ambiguous E.g. could it take a full attack on plane A and a Run on plane B? How about full attack on A, and move at full speed on plane B? Then what if it split its full attack, so it took only a single attack on plane A, the rest on plane B, and then took a full move on plane B?

I went through a couple different wordings (such as restricting to a 5' step on any plane you take 2 or more attacks on), but in the end I figured "up to the same distance" was the easiest way to get around this. That way you can never get more action on one plane than a normal opponent could take on a single plane.

 

[Knight Otu]

OK, I see it now. Must have had a brainfart.

I think we can call this guy final (finally) then, and try to gather a few more names.