Creature by Poll #7 - Dragon Discussion!

[EldonG]

I was thinking about combat tactics this beastie might use, and I got stuck on the following:

Suppose the dragon wants to actively send someone to the Astral plane by moving "through" them... what combat action would that be?

Seems like it should be something like a Bullrush or Overrun. Both start with an AoO from the target, which is fine. In an Overrun, the target next has the option to simply step aside. No defense roll of any kind required, which is rather lame. If we call it a Bullrush and the target passes through the dragon's "skin" as soon as you get to the opposed Str checks, then the target gets *no* defense, which doesn't seem right either.

Do we need to add a special "move through" action, with a Reflex save (or tumble check) to avoid? Or is there simpler way of doing this? Swallow Whole wouldn't work because it's incorporeal, and it would be too much of a hassle anyway (we want the rift effect to come into play more often than that). And I don't think we want it to happen on every Claw attack either, it should probably be a separate action.

At any rate, you're going straight where I was heading...

 

[Conaill]

So, as a DM, how would you run such an attack?

Seems like one could argue it should be a Touch Attack, so Dex modifier, Deflection and Dodge bonuses come into play. On the other hand, the size modifier for a touch attack seems backwards in this case, because it should be easier pass through a significant portion of a small creature than a larger one.

On the third hand... this does seem somewhat similar to the Crush (Ex) or Tail Sweep (Ex) abilities: standard action, can affect multiple opponents, only affects opponents that are X or more size categories smaller, Reflex save with DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon. In this case, I would suggest X = 2 or less, so even a Medium-size Wyrmling has a chance to use this ability against wizard familiars etc.

 

[EldonG]

So, as a DM, how would you run such an attack?

Seems like one could argue it should be a Touch Attack, so Dex modifier, Deflection and Dodge bonuses come into play. On the other hand, the size modifier for a touch attack seems backwards in this case, because it should be easier pass through a significant portion of a small creature than a larger one.

On the third hand... this does seem somewhat similar to the Crush (Ex) or Tail Sweep (Ex) abilities: standard action, can affect multiple opponents, only affects opponents that are X or more size categories smaller, Reflex save with DC equal to that of the dragon?s breath weapon. In this case, I would suggest X = 2 or less, so even a Medium-size Wyrmling has a chance to use this ability against wizard familiars etc.

I'd think, from the sound of it, it could use just about any attack...I'd think bull rush would be particularly effective...though in any case, I'd consider a reflex save...

 

[Knight Otu]

Conceptually, it should be overrun. Both of course would use a strength check, which it would automatically fail.

"The XXX may use the overrun action to force a creature through the rift formed by its skin. Due to the incorporeal nature of the XXX, the opponent cannot simply avoid the attack by stepping aside. He must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the dragon's HD + the dragon's Dexterity modifier). The XXX substitutes a Dexterity check for the Strength check. If the XXX wins, the defender is moved through the rift. If the defender wins, the XXX povokes another attack of opportunity."

 

[Conaill]

So far I haven't yet heard or thought of any ways to do this by the existing combat rules, so it looks like we'll have to add another paragraph to the "final" version after all. (as they say... don't count your dragons til they hatch! )

- Reflex DC: let's use the Breath Weapon DC, to be consistent with the existing Crush and Tail Sweep special attacks. You could argue for a Dex-based DC for those two equally well, but sticking with one DC simplifies things considerably.

- Making it an Overrun means the dragon (1) can't use this tactic on a charge, (2) can keep moving after going though the opponent, and (3) can only overrun an opponent who is within one size category. The first two seem reasonable, but the last one seems quite onerous for what we have in mind. I think this action is sufficiently different from an Overrun that we may want to avoid referring to Overrun, and just steal some language from the Overrun action where necessary.

- The opposed Str check doesn't make much sense, even if you substitute the dragon's check by a Dex check. In particular, the defender should only be allowed a Dex check to avoid an incorporeal attacker. In which case I would prefer just using a single Reflex save, rather than a Reflex save followed by an opposed Dex check (especially if we use the higher breath weapon save DC).


How about this:

"Rift Attack (Ex): As a standard action, the XXX may try to force a creature through the rift formed by its skin. Rift attacks are effective only against opponents two or more size categories smaller than the dragon. The XXX provokes an Attack of Opportunity by moving into the defender's space. The defender then must make a Reflex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon) or be sucked through the rift."

 

[Knight Otu]

So far I haven't yet heard or thought of any ways to do this by the existing combat rules, so it looks like we'll have to add another paragraph to the "final" version after all. (as they say... don't count your dragons til they hatch! )

How about this:

OK, that sounds much smoother. Maybe I should up the CRs by 1 each now?

 

[Conaill]

Maybe I should up the CRs by 1 each now?

I'll leave that up to your own judgement. Keep in mind that with the 2 size increment limit, the dragon would have to be Young Adult before this tactic becomes feasible against a Medium size opponent. Plus there is some overlap with the Astral Wind ability, especially for smaller opponents.

 

[Knight Otu]

I must be having reading comprehension problems recently. First your Movement post, then Uriel's PbP update, and now your Rift Attack. I was pretty sure that I read "one or more size categories smaller" rather than two.:\

That said, I might still increase the CRs. Remember that I dropped the CRs from the estimate by UK's method, so the bit of power increase would possibly justify the higher CR.

Should we write a paragraph about advancing the dragon beyond Great Wyrm, as per the ELH?

It doesn't seem we'll get any more names, so I'll start the naming poll, too.

 

[Conaill]

Maybe a CR +1 with "one or more size categories smaller"? That would mean even a Very Young dragon could use it on a medium size opponent. Your pick.

Advancing beyond Great Wyrm: that would be CR 34+, not sure there's enough demand to make it worth our while. Personally, I have no interest in doing this. Guess you could always add character levels...

 

[EldonG]

I must be having reading comprehension problems recently. First your Movement post, then Uriel's PbP update, and now your Rift Attack. I was pretty sure that I read "one or more size categories smaller" rather than two.:\

That said, I might still increase the CRs. Remember that I dropped the CRs from the estimate by UK's method, so the bit of power increase would possibly justify the higher CR.

Should we write a paragraph about advancing the dragon beyond Great Wyrm, as per the ELH?

It doesn't seem we'll get any more names, so I'll start the naming poll, too.

The advancing as per ELH is already there...it's an assumption for all true dragons, the way I read it...and I may be advancing it!