D&D 3E/3.5 Creature Catalog 3.5 Overhaul Project

[Shade]

3.5 versions of comparable abilities...

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a ghoul’s bite or claw attack must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Elves have immunity to this paralysis. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Regeneration (Ex): Fire and acid deal normal damage to a troll. If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Hobgoblin stats: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Ghoul stats: Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
Troll: +12 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +12 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Wisdom, –4 Charisma.
Half-Troll Template: Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6, Int -2, Cha -2

 

[Orius]

Finally a creature I'm familiar with. I feel I can actually contribute something useful here.

The 3e conversion is quite bit similar to one I did with a few minor differences. My conversion was based rather heavily on the 2e version from the Mystara MC. I gave them the following stats: Str 11, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10, and Alertness rather than Improved Initiative for the standard feat. I felt that they should have an average Int score like hobgoblins, but I don't really remember how I decided to arrange the scores otherwise, though probably I looked at hobgoblin, ghoul and troll stats and decided the numbers based on them.

I gave them fast healing 1 like the conversion rather than full blown regeneration, since that seemed more in line with the old pre-3e write ups.

Paralysis was identical to ghoul paralysis, though I noted that thouls are smart enough to know that elves are immune, and use melee weapons against them instead.

Made them usually lawful evil, as LE was given as the 2e alignment, and because it is also the alignment listed for hobgoblins.

Thoul society was described as living alone in small family groups, or in the company of powerful hobgoblin leaders as elite mercs. I gave them fighter as favored class, listed spellcaster as often adepts or sorcerers, and cleric domains as hobgoblins.

Since 3e hobgoblins have an LA of +1, I'd say a LA of +2 or even +3 is reasonable for thouls.

 

[BOZ]

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a ghoul?s bite or claw attack must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Elves have immunity to this paralysis. The save DC is Charisma-based.

oddly enough, the duration was longer in the older edition. but i don't see why a lesser creature should have a more powerful ability. should this be Con-based sine thouls are living creatures? i don't know if OD&D elves were immune to paralysis in general, or just to thoul paralysis.

Regeneration (Ex): Fire and acid deal normal damage to a troll. If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

I gave them fast healing 1 like the conversion rather than full blown regeneration, since that seemed more in line with the old pre-3e write ups.

i'm inclined to agree with orius, though i think it might be better higher than 1 (maybe 2, or even 3).

The 3e conversion is quite bit similar to one I did with a few minor differences. My conversion was based rather heavily on the 2e version from the Mystara MC.

good man! not that i'm inclined to throw away the older versions or anything...

Hobgoblin stats: Str 13, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8
Ghoul stats: Str 13, Dex 15, Con ?, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
Troll: +12 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +12 Constitution, ?4 Intelligence (minimum 3), ?2 Wisdom, ?4 Charisma.
Half-Troll Template: Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6, Int -2, Cha -2

I gave them the following stats: Str 11, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10, and Alertness rather than Improved Initiative for the standard feat. I felt that they should have an average Int score like hobgoblins, but I don't really remember how I decided to arrange the scores otherwise, though probably I looked at hobgoblin, ghoul and troll stats and decided the numbers based on them.

hmm, and i think it was Erica that gave them Str 15 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 6 Wis 11 Cha 10 in the CC.

not sure that i would want to give them a Str lower than hobbys and ghouls, but should they be weaker? Dex could be 14 as Orius suggests, between hobby and ghoul/troll. Con 17 and 18 seem a bit high, though that maybe be the troll influence speaking. 2E Int was 5-7 (Rules Cyclopedia had 6) which matches the troll aspect. Wis 11 and Cha 10 seem fine, though we could always go lower if balance seems to demand it.

Made them usually lawful evil, as LE was given as the 2e alignment, and because it is also the alignment listed for hobgoblins.

i was considering this too. however, trolls and ghouls are both CE. tough call. they do associate with hobgoblins mostly though...

 

[GrayLinnorm]

oddly enough, the duration was longer in the older edition. but i don't see why a lesser creature should have a more powerful ability. should this be Con-based sine thouls are living creatures? i don't know if OD&D elves were immune to paralysis in general, or just to thoul paralysis.





i'm inclined to agree with orius, though i think it might be better higher than 1 (maybe 2, or even 3).



good man! not that i'm inclined to throw away the older versions or anything...





hmm, and i think it was Erica that gave them Str 15 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 6 Wis 11 Cha 10 in the CC.

not sure that i would want to give them a Str lower than hobbys and ghouls, but should they be weaker? Dex could be 14 as Orius suggests, between hobby and ghoul/troll. Con 17 and 18 seem a bit high, though that maybe be the troll influence speaking. 2E Int was 5-7 (Rules Cyclopedia had 6) which matches the troll aspect. Wis 11 and Cha 10 seem fine, though we could always go lower if balance seems to demand it.



i was considering this too. however, trolls and ghouls are both CE. tough call. they do associate with hobgoblins mostly though...

Oddly enough, the low intelligence matched the ghoul aspect too. However, ghouls are a lot smarter in 3e, so I would probably side with Orius on this one.

As for alignment, you could compromise and make them neutral evil...

 

[Orius]

oddly enough, the duration was longer in the older edition. but i don't see why a lesser creature should have a more powerful ability. should this be Con-based sine thouls are living creatures? i don't know if OD&D elves were immune to paralysis in general, or just to thoul paralysis.

Thoul paralysis is consistantly described as being more or less identical to that of a ghoul, so I'd just cut and paste here. Elves have always been immune to a ghoul's paralysis, so the immunity should also apply to thouls as well.

i'm inclined to agree with orius, though i think it might be better higher than 1 (maybe 2, or even 3).

Again, this is a matter of consistancy. All the previous version of the thoul only regenerate 1 hp/round so I saw no reason to increase it. The original CC write up also kept it at 1 hp/round.

not sure that i would want to give them a Str lower than hobbys and ghouls, but should they be weaker? Dex could be 14 as Orius suggests, between hobby and ghoul/troll. Con 17 and 18 seem a bit high, though that maybe be the troll influence speaking. 2E Int was 5-7 (Rules Cyclopedia had 6) which matches the troll aspect. Wis 11 and Cha 10 seem fine, though we could always go lower if balance seems to demand it.

Not sure why I gave them 11 Str exactly, but I think I felt that Con was probably the most important ability due to the fast healing, so high is justified there. As GrayLinnorm points out, ghouls are smarter in 3e than in previous editions, so an average Int is fine by me. If we want thouls to be a bit dull minded from trollish influences, I'd say maybe bump it down to an 8, but I don't think we need to go much lower than that. I prefer humanoids that have normal intelligence rather than more dim-wtted brutes.

i was considering this too. however, trolls and ghouls are both CE. tough call. they do associate with hobgoblins mostly though...

Well, they're just humanoids, so alignment probably reflects social influences, and thoul society is likely far more strongly influenced by hobgoblin society rather than troll of ghoul society. And I tend to treat thouls as a hobgoblin variant anyway.

 

[BOZ]

Thoul paralysis is consistantly described as being more or less identical to that of a ghoul, so I'd just cut and paste here. Elves have always been immune to a ghoul's paralysis, so the immunity should also apply to thouls as well.

Oh duh, it's right in the MM; elves are immune. So yeah, I agree.

should the save be Con-based since thouls are living creatures?

Again, this is a matter of consistancy. All the previous version of the thoul only regenerate 1 hp/round so I saw no reason to increase it. The original CC write up also kept it at 1 hp/round.

hit points have changed a bit though - most characters and monsters have more (and in many cases, a lot more) hp than they would have in previous additions. I think it needs fast heal 2 at least.

Oddly enough, the low intelligence matched the ghoul aspect too. However, ghouls are a lot smarter in 3e, so I would probably side with Orius on this one.

Not sure why I gave them 11 Str exactly, but I think I felt that Con was probably the most important ability due to the fast healing, so high is justified there. As GrayLinnorm points out, ghouls are smarter in 3e than in previous editions, so an average Int is fine by me. If we want thouls to be a bit dull minded from trollish influences, I'd say maybe bump it down to an 8, but I don't think we need to go much lower than that. I prefer humanoids that have normal intelligence rather than more dim-wtted brutes.

so would it be OK if we keep what the CC had and raise the Int up to 8 then?
Str 15 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 6 Wis 11 Cha 10

As for alignment, you could compromise and make them neutral evil...

Well, they're just humanoids, so alignment probably reflects social influences, and thoul society is likely far more strongly influenced by hobgoblin society rather than troll of ghoul society. And I tend to treat thouls as a hobgoblin variant anyway.

I think I shall go with Usually LE. Would it make sense to give them the (Goblin) subtype?

 

[Orius]

should the save be Con-based since thouls are living creatures?

Hmm, not really sure on this one. I belive ghoul paralysis is Cha based, so I kept it that way (you know, cut and paste), but if Con is more mechanically sound, then perhaps it should be used instead. Also Con based would bump the save DC by a couple of points.

hit points have changed a bit though - most characters and monsters have more (and in many cases, a lot more) hp than they would have in previous additions. I think it needs fast heal 2 at least.

I can live with fast heal 2 if it's important enough to change.

so would it be OK if we keep what the CC had and raise the Int up to 8 then?
Str 15 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 6 Wis 11 Cha 10

You mean Str 15, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10? That loos fine by me. Incidentally, I finally figured out out how I came up with my old stats. It looks like I just used the standard 3.0 hobgoblin stats (which had a lower Str score) and bumped the con up a bit.

I think I shall go with Usually LE. Would it make sense to give them the (Goblin) subtype?

Well, the subtype wouldn't bother me too much, but then aren't we also making it a monstrous humanoid rather than humanoid? Do the monstrous humanoids usualy get subtypes or not? Just looking for clarification.

 

[Shade]

Catching up...

Paralysis: I'd make it Con-based, as most other critters with paralysis that aren't undead use Con.

Alignment: I agree with same as hobgoblins.

Regen/Fast Healing: The half-troll template in Fiend Folio grants fast healing, if that helps sway the decision.

Goblinoid Subtype: Yeah, I'm for it.

Ability Scores: Going with the suggested Str 15 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 11 Cha 10...

This gives them racial modifiers of Str +4, Dex +4, Con +8, Int -2.

Here's what the component creatures have...
Troll: +12 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +12 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Wisdom, –4 Charisma.
Hob: +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution.
Ghoul: +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha.

If we average this and round down to the nearest even number, we get: +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha.

I'm not opposed to the original suggestion, but this keeps the thoul more in line with other creatures of it's relative CR:

Bugbear: -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
Gnoll: +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

This also keeps them weaker physically than the half-troll, which theoretically has "more troll" in it, not diluted by ghoul "blood". Half-Troll Template: Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6, Int -2, Cha -2

 

[BOZ]

Paralysis: I'd make it Con-based, as most other critters with paralysis that aren't undead use Con.

Hmm, not really sure on this one. I belive ghoul paralysis is Cha based, so I kept it that way (you know, cut and paste), but if Con is more mechanically sound, then perhaps it should be used instead. Also Con based would bump the save DC by a couple of points.

Con-based would seem to be more mechanically sound. The reason most effects that undead have are tied to Cha, is that undead have no Con score.

Regen/Fast Healing: The half-troll template in Fiend Folio grants fast healing, if that helps sway the decision.

I can live with fast heal 2 if it's important enough to change.

It's not super important, I just think it would be a good thing over all.

You mean Str 15, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10? That loos fine by me. Incidentally, I finally figured out out how I came up with my old stats. It looks like I just used the standard 3.0 hobgoblin stats (which had a lower Str score) and bumped the con up a bit.

Ability Scores: Going with the suggested Str 15 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 8 Wis 11 Cha 10...

This gives them racial modifiers of Str +4, Dex +4, Con +8, Int -2.

Here's what the component creatures have...
Troll: +12 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +12 Constitution, –4 Intelligence (minimum 3), –2 Wisdom, –4 Charisma.
Hob: +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution.
Ghoul: +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha.

If we average this and round down to the nearest even number, we get: +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha.

I'm not opposed to the original suggestion, but this keeps the thoul more in line with other creatures of it's relative CR:

Bugbear: -4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
Gnoll: +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

This also keeps them weaker physically than the half-troll, which theoretically has "more troll" in it, not diluted by ghoul "blood". Half-Troll Template: Str +6, Dex +2, Con +6, Int -2, Cha –2

just remember, this guy is... 1/3 troll rather than half.

so Shade, you are suggesting something more like Str 15, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 9? Slightly different, but not terribly much so.

Well, the subtype wouldn't bother me too much, but then aren't we also making it a monstrous humanoid rather than humanoid? Do the monstrous humanoids usualy get subtypes or not? Just looking for clarification.

Alignment: I agree with same as hobgoblins.

Goblinoid Subtype: Yeah, I'm for it.

monstrous humanoids don't require a subtype as regular humanoids do, but that doesn't mean we can't give it one. Racial subtype is usually more of a hindrance than not, as it makes you vulnerable to things like the ranger's special enemy ability, and goblinbane weapons. However, it would also qualify them for a goblin-only prestige class, and let them use magic items that only goblins could wield. It's a toss-up, since it is not necessary.

 

[Shade]

just remember, this guy is... 1/3 troll rather than half.

Indeed. That's why I like him with less Str and Con than the half-troll template.

so Shade, you are suggesting something more like Str 15, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 9? Slightly different, but not terribly much so.

Yes.

monstrous humanoids don't require a subtype as regular humanoids do, but that doesn't mean we can't give it one. Racial subtype is usually more of a hindrance than not, as it makes you vulnerable to things like the ranger's special enemy ability, and goblinbane weapons. However, it would also qualify them for a goblin-only prestige class, and let them use magic items that only goblins could wield. It's a toss-up, since it is not necessary.

To me, thouls seem "mostly hobgoblin", so I'd like to see them take extra damage from goblinoid-bane weapons and qualify for goblinoid prestige classes (if any exist).