Creature subtypes...humanoid v. monstrous humanoid

I'm setting up an encounter that includes a sorcerer who has dominated a goblin chief and is thus running things from behind the scene at a goblin encampment. My question is, should the sorcerer have used dominate person, which affects one humanoid, or dominate monster, which affects one creature? The 3.5 entry for goblins reads "humanoid (goblinoid)," and I'm confused as to whether that means the goblin chief is a humanoid or a monstrous humanoid. I need to figure this out because it makes a big difference in what level the sorcerer is...dominate person is a sor/wiz 5 spell while dominate monster is a sor/wiz 9 spell. The party in question is first level.

The sorcerer is not that invested in the goblin encampment and may choose to run if there's a direct threat from the party, but I feel that I need to know his exact spellcasting level since he may become a recurring NPC or he may end up cornered and have to fight.

Also, if there is another spell that I haven't considered using that would effectively replace dominate x, I'd welcome any suggestions.
 

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Monstrous humanoid is a seperate type from humanoid. Medusas, for example, are monstrous humanoids. Goblins are humanoids with the goblinoid subtype. Take a look at the beginning of the Monster Manual for descriptions of the seperate types.
 
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Yes, I used the 3.5 srd to determine that humanoid and monstrous humanoid are different types. I just need to be sure that when it says "(goblinoid)" that this does in fact mean humanoid and not monstrous humanoid.
 

CanadienneBacon said:
Yes, I used the 3.5 srd to determine that humanoid and monstrous humanoid are different types. I just need to be sure that when it says "(goblinoid)" that this does in fact mean humanoid and not monstrous humanoid.
It means it is a humanoid of the goblinoid Subtype like human are humanoid of the human Subtype

Hope that helps
 

Spatula said:
Monstrous humanoid is a seperate type from humanoid. Medusas, for example, are monstrous humanoids. Goblins are humanoids with the goblinoid subtype. Take a look at the beginning of the Monster Manual for descriptions of the seperate types.

Bane weapon property has a pretty good list.
01–05 Aberrations
06–09 Animals
10–16 Constructs
17–22 Dragons
23–27 Elementals
28–32 Fey
33–39 Giants
40 Humanoids, aquatic
41–42 Humanoids, dwarf
43–44 Humanoids, elf
45 Humanoids, gnoll
46 Humanoids, gnome
47–49 Humanoids, goblinoid
50 Humanoids, halfling
51–54 Humanoids, human
55–57 Humanoids, reptilian
58–60 Humanoids, orc
61–65 Magical beasts
66–70 Monstrous humanoids
71–72 Oozes
73 Outsiders, air
74–76 Outsiders, chaotic
77 Outsiders, earth
78–80 Outsiders, evil
81 Outsiders, fire
82–84 Outsiders, good
85–87 Outsiders, lawful
88 Outsiders, water
89–90 Plants
91–98 Undead
99–100 Vermin


BTW Just wanted to mention that a Sorc with 5th level spells at his disposal should likely annihilate any first level party. Its an annoyance of the system where high levels are needed for certain magical effects very common in the vein of fantasy fiction. Also Note that dominate is not very effective for ruling behind the scenes since the non combat effectiveness if the one you dominate falls through the floor. Given the morals of goblins, a leader exhibiting sign s of being dominated would be quickly slain. Its not that the tribe would reconized the signs thierleader was dominated, its just he would be poorly prepared for a coup de tat from a rival [meaning if the sorc was using a charged item, charges would get used up swiftly as new chieftains need to be dominated.]

A long duration charm person variant [higher level] or high diplomacy skill may go further for the Sorc.




Dominate Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.
If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here,” “Go there,” “Fight,” and “Stand still.” You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically.
Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).
Changing your instructions or giving a dominated creature a new command is the equivalent of redirecting a spell, so it is a move action.
By concentrating fully on the spell (a standard action), you can receive full sensory input as interpreted by the mind of the subject, though it still can’t communicate with you. You can’t actually see through the subject’s eyes, so it’s not as good as being there yourself, but you still get a good idea of what’s going on.
Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it.
If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination.
Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect neither prevents the establishment of domination nor dispels it.
 
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I also want to note, that in 3.5 it's fairly easy to discern, that a person has been dominated with the Sense Motive skill!

As has been said, Charm Person is probably a better choice (and only a 1st level spell). It won't make the goblin do whatever the sorcerer wants and has a much shorter duration, but if he cleverly words his requests, it will allow him to control the goblin tribe through the chieftain.

Bye
Thanee
 

If you’re not adverse to using things from the Book of Vile Darkness, you could have it so that the sorcerer has used the addiction spell to get the chieftain addicted to a drug. The chieftain wouldn’t be able to get the drug himself, so the sorcerer would be able to blackmail him in exchange for heading to some nearby settlement and picking the drug up there.

The addiction spell is only second level, so the sorcerer would only need to be 4th level to do this. That way he’d be strong enough to possibly be a recurring villain, but not so strong that the PCs would have no chance against him, especially if they managed to gain a level before they faced him. Also, the PCs could then investigate to find out who is supplying the drugs in the region, which could lead into a long-term campaign thread.
 

Thanks for suggesting addiction and charm person. Addiction may work but charm person probably won't...I've got a situation going on where the sorcerer came into the goblin encampment a week ago or so and messed with the goblin chieftain, who in turn instructed his tribe to delve into the tunnels underneath a nearby city. Whichever spell I end up going with will need to address the issue of long-term enchantment of some sort. Addiction, by the nature of the RL disease, and also by the merits of the D&D spell description, may work out well. I'm not opposed to BoVD material for this particular campaign. As to whether the tribe would revolt and kill off the weakened chieftain, that may actually work out rather well for the plotline...thanks for that idea.

If anyone else has something they'd like to add, the door remains open.

Thanks.
 

I somewhat agree that pitting a powerful foe against a low-level party can be a mistake. In this case, however, I don't intend that the sorcerer will stick around to fight. I'm hoping that the sorcerer will go on to become a recurring nemesis for the party, who, let's face it, will rapidly catch up in levels.

Still, some adjustment does seem to be needed. What do you think of using lesser geas or suggestion? Suggestion is a 3rd level spell and the subject, if they fail their will save, is compelled to follow through until the suggestion is completed or 1 hour/level. Lesser geas is similiar but the subject suffers if it doesn't follow through in any given 24 hour period. Lesser geas is a 4th level spell.

Another idea I had was to take the 2ed version of the charm person spell and turn it into a researched spell for my 3.5 sorcerer called greater charm person. Can sorcerers "research" spells? The 2ed version of cp is much more powerful and seems to do what I need...it only allows a sporadic will save to resist at longer (much longer) intervals. Depending on the subject's intelligence, the subject gets a new save every month to day. The goblin chieftain would be allowed a new save every week.

As to why the rest of the tribe hasn't detected any monkey business between their chieftain and the sorcerer, I had the idea that the sorcerer was able to enthrall his audience in public and cast the spell in public...thus, the tribe could see the influence on their leader and there were no doubts as to whether anything out of the ordinary was going on. Sometimes the best way to hide something is to do it in plain sight.

Thoughts?
 

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