Creature Types/Subtypes & Classification

Okay first thanks RuleMaster - I stand corrected (thats the problem with quoting off the top of ones head)

Voadam said:
No, because most types do not have many entries with any subtype. How many oozes have a subtype for instance?

The reason for outsiders and humanoids to require a subtype I presume is because the designers thought they would be too unbalanced an option otherwise. Or perhaps because they simply wanted things to target a specific race or class of outsiders for flavor reasons (elf bane weapons created by orcs or demon slaying weapons).

Personally I always thought getting so specific with Humanoids (how many types of gnoll are there?) was somewhat rediculous anyway. Afterall what is that different about an Elf and a Dwarf when it comes to killing it more effeciently? This is especially so when an 'unrestricted' Type like 'Undead' is both huge (everything from Allips to Nightshades to Zombies) and ubiquitous.

And come to think of it sorting Favoured enemy by Type and Subtype (Undead:Positive, Humanoid: Dragon, Abberation:Ooze or Beast:Fey) isn't a bad way to go
 
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Aaron L said:
I think your'e looking into it too hard. D&D uses the classical elements, but isn't trying to force everything into an elemental theme. If you try to look at it assuming that every spell and monster has to tie to an element than it won't make a great deal of sense.

I don't try and force everything, or even most things. But D&D attempts to be elemental when it clearly isn't suited just for the sake of completeness
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is a good example of where it tries and falls apart. Earth doesn't have an energy type and so it's opposition to air is kind of stunted, so they force acid and lightning to fit and just end up making a mess



The non elemental sub-types suffer from a similar base problem, a simple lack of thought on the issue
 

RuleMaster said:
SRD: "At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given."
  • Aberration
  • Animal
  • Construct
  • Dragon
  • Elemental
  • Fey
  • Giant
  • Humanoid (aquatic)
  • Humanoid (dwarf)
  • Humanoid (elf)
  • Humanoid (goblinoid)
  • Humanoid (gnoll)
  • Humanoid (gnome)
  • Humanoid (halfling)
  • Humanoid (human)
  • Humanoid (orc)
  • Humanoid (reptilian)
  • Magical beast
  • Monstrous Humanoid
  • Ooze
  • Outsider (air)
  • Outsider (chaotic)
  • Outsider (earth)
  • Outsider (evil)
  • Outsider (fire)
  • Outsider (good)
  • Outsider (lawful)
  • Outsider (native)
  • Outsider (water)
  • Plant
  • Undead
  • Vermin

Edit:
One point, I forgot: We have only 8 main categories now, but those are fairly big. Is it advisable, if we institute a rule, which changes Bane and Favorite Enemy, so one has to choose alwas a Type and a Subtype?

My house-rule is that the list for favored enemies and bane weapons is thus:
  • Aberration
  • (Acid)
  • (Air)
  • Animal
  • (Aquatic)
  • (Avian)
  • (Canine)
  • (Chaotic)
  • (Cold)
  • Construct
  • Dragon
  • (Dwarf)
  • (Earth)
  • (Electricity)
  • Elemental
  • (Elf)
  • (Equine)
  • (Evil)
  • Fey
  • (Feline)
  • (Fire)
  • Giant
  • (Gnoll)
  • (Gnome)
  • (Goblinoid)
  • (Good)
  • (Halfling)
  • (Human)
  • (Incorporeal)
  • (Lawful)
  • Lupine
  • Magical beast
  • Monstrous Humanoid
  • Ooze
  • (Orc)
  • Plant
  • (Reptilian)
  • (Sonic)
  • (Spiderkind)
  • Undead
  • Vermin
  • (Water)
Plus maybe a few subtypes I may have forgotten.

Anyway, you chose either a type (among the list -- Humanoid and Outsider are absent from it) or a subtype.

You can have a ranger who fights against fire creatures -- be they red dragons, magmins, efreets, or salamanders.

I've slapped more subtypes to various creatures. Azers are Outsiders (Dwarf, Fire), Aranea are Magical Beasts (Spiderkind), Hippogriffs are Magical Beast (Avian, Equine), etc.

With that system, centaurs could become Humanoid (Equine) and minotaurs could become Giant (Bovine) ;), eliminating the need for the Monstrous Humanoid type.
 

reanjr said:
That reminds me. Instead of Vermin, make it an Arthropod subtype. I think that would work much better and seems to fit all the current vermin (D20 SRD ones at least).

I've often wondered about that type. As far as I know, vermin are things like rats and pigeons, not scorpions and spiders. Is using 'vermin' to refer to creepy-crawlies an Americanism?


glass.
 

As far as I know, vermin are things like bugs, rats, pigeons, and anyone with ranks in Profession (Politician), (Advertiser) or (Lawyer). :)

Parasites, scavengers, creepy-crawlies, and all those things that live on refuse or on our blood... The verb "to deverminate" doesn't exist in English? It means to remove fleas, lice, ticks, and other parasites that infest an animal. Or, in the computer field, to remove virii, worms, spywares, and similar pests.
 

Knight Otu said:
Another possibility, feats like:

Horse Master
Get a +2 bonus to Ride and Handle Animal checks concerning Equines, and a +2 bonus to checks made to influence equines.

Finally I know, what the problem is with this feat - you could influence centaurs, too, if they have the subtype (Equine). Better would be a restriction like "Works only on Equines of the Beast type with an intelligence lower than 3."

Voadam said:
No, because most types do not have many entries with any subtype. How many oozes have a subtype for instance?

The reason for outsiders and humanoids to require a subtype I presume is because the designers thought they would be too unbalanced an option otherwise. Or perhaps because they simply wanted things to target a specific race or class of outsiders for flavor reasons (elf bane weapons created by orcs or demon slaying weapons).

You miss, that Oozes are a subtype themselves - Aberration (Ooze). Under the prerequisite, that every creature has a subtype, it will be a functional rule. This can be achieved with two ways: 1. It is assured, that there is no gap for every type. Do we have subtypes, which will catch every monster, which don't fit elsewhere, like the Aberration type in the core rules? 2. Every creature has an element associated with it (but see below). These ways can be combined.

The flavor reasons are valid only so far. While it is surely nice to have a weapon, which eliminates certain foes more efficiently, this can be achieved with two methods: 1. Simply declaring, that a Bane (Humanoid (Anthropoid)) weapon is a Bane (Humanoid (Elf)) weapon. That this weapon is effective even against humans and dwarfs is a nice benefit and that it provides the same bonus against orcs - the orc wielding the sword won't mind. In real life, we have anthrox, effective against humans, used by humans - without being vaccinated, everyone, even the creators, are susceptible. 2. It is really a Bane (Humanoid (Elf)) weapon. I would allow even with the broad system a specialisation, accompanied with a reduced cost, because it overall less useful.

Tonguez said:
Okay first thanks Rolemaster - I stand corrected (thats the problem with quoting off the top of ones head)

No problem - even I misremembered, that Outsiders have been broken down to subtypes (but this doesn't really invalidate my argument above). But my nick is "RuleMaster" - with "u" and only one "s". I've been thinking about changing my nick, but luckily I've made a translation error, so I can point out, that I've mastered the "one" rule - having fun! :p

Personally I always thought getting so specific with Humanoids (how many types of gnoll are there?) was somewhat rediculous anyway. Afterall what is that different about an Elf and a Dwarf when it comes to killing it more effeciently? This is especially so when an 'unrestricted' Type like 'Undead' is both huge (everything from Allips to Nightshades to Zombies) and ubiquitous.

And come to think of it sorting Favoured enemy by Type and Subtype (Undead:Positive, Humanoid: Dragon, Abberation:Ooze or Beast:Fey) isn't a bad way to go

My thoughts exactly!

BigRedRod said:
I don't try and force everything, or even most things. But D&D attempts to be elemental when it clearly isn't suited just for the sake of completeness
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is a good example of where it tries and falls apart. Earth doesn't have an energy type and so it's opposition to air is kind of stunted, so they force acid and lightning to fit and just end up making a mess

Air has an energy type? That would be new to me. I dont have this adventure, so I can't comment on the rest, but there is a certain point with your problem and its solution - core D&D lacks really a consistent application, so the question is, if we want to have a rules replacement, which is easy to adapt (with the change of the monster types for every monster the big exception) or if we want to patch this problem, too, and make a more profound change to the core rules.

If we do the letter, then we need to decide, how many elements we want to have and if every creature has an element assiociated with it or if there are still (big?) exceptions. Showing the most inclusive system, I know of, namely the already mentioned "Elements of Magic Revised", should help to decide this question. EoMR provides 22 elements - among of these is Life, the subtype, which most creatures like the Humanoids have. While those elements are heavily used in the magic rules, which EoMR can replace (thus there are some references, which won't make much sense to you), the core spells can be left mostly unchanged. The most relevant sections are:

EoMR said:
Element:
Element spells affect creatures and objects with elemental energy. Most of the elements, excluding the Unifying Elements, are part of the Elemental Sphere, as shown in the following diagram (not included in the quote). Friendly elements are adjacent to each other, while opposing elements are on
the opposite sides of the sphere.

There is a difference between spells that affect elementals (the creature type) and those that affect elements. A Transform Earth spell can turn things to stone, but it cannot turn something into an earth elemental. For that you’d need both Transform Earth and Transform Elemental.

One final confusion is that Ooze is both a creature type and an element. This is mostly because all the other words for ooze as an element sound a bit silly – sludge, slime, goo, gunk, or even mud just don’t cut it. Since the only times the two Oozes overlap are for Abjure and Transform, treat Ooze as being both sorts. If you know Abjure Ooze, you can keep mud away just as easily as you can fend off slime monsters.

The Categories of Elements

The 22 elements are divided into the following categories, based on their natures.
• The Cardinal Elements: Air, Death, Earth, Fire, Life, and Water. These are the primary elements on the equator and the axis of the sphere of elements.
• The Paraelements: Lava, Lightning, Mist, and Ooze. These elements each are derived by combining two cardinal elements from the equator.
• The Negative Elements: Acid, Metal, Shadow, and Void. These elements are the combination of Death and one of the equatorial elements.
• The Positive Elements: Crystal, Ice, Light, and Sound. These elements are the combination of Life and one of the equatorial elements.
• The Unifying Elements: Force, Nature, Space, and Time. Nature is within the sphere of elements and is a balanced mixture of all the elements. Space, force, and time are all outside the sphere and represent the normally intangible concepts of space, forces, and time.
Elemental Relations
All of the physical elements have several friendly or opposed elements, but the unifying elements do not, and neither do Life or Death. These relations affect how different elements interact.

Elemental Subtypes:
All creatures have elemental subtypes, and some have two or more. Most aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, outsiders, plants, and vermin have the [Life] subtype in addition to any listed in their descriptions. Thus a red dragon would be a [Fire, Life] creature. Undead have the [Death] subtype. Elementals obviously have the same subtype as their element. Constructs are animated by elemental spirits, and so have a subtype appropriate to the elemental that animates them; for most golems this is an Earth elemental.

Every element deals its own type of damage, and creatures are immune to damage of their own subtype. For instance, fire damage cannot harm fire elementals, and death damage does not harm undead. The physical attacks of creatures do not count as energy damage, however, so if you have acid resistance, it won’t help protect you from a black dragon’s claws.

The exceptions to this rule are the Crystal, Earth, Metal, and Nature elements. These elements simply deal physical damage, not energy damage, so energy resistance against one of these types won’t actually protect against the chosen type. However, most elements have friendly elements, detailed below, which can make even Earth Resistance useful.

Life damage usually cannot deal lethal damage to [Life] creatures, but it does have the exception that it can be used to cause nonlethal damage, even to humans, elves, etc.

Friendly Elements:
Creatures of a given elemental type cannot be harmed by energy damage of that type, nor can they be harmed by energy damage from elements listed as ‘friendly’ to their own element. Whenever an effect grants energy resistance versus a type of element, that protection also applies to the friendly elements. For example, if you have Shadow Resistance 5, this prevents the first 5 points of damage each time you take shadow, acid, or void damage.

Note that friendly elements don’t always match both ways. You are protected against your friendly elements, but they are not necessarily protected against you. For instance, shadow has the friendly elements void and acid, but acid has the friendly elements void and water. Thus, a creature with Shadow resistance is resistant to Acid damage, but Shadow damage can harm an Acid creature just fine.

Opposed Elements:
Whenever a creature receives energy damage from a source that is of an opposed elemental type, that creature takes half again as much damage, even if a save is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.

Related Ability Scores:
The Infuse [Element] spell list can grant bonuses to ability scores. The ability scores you can enhance depend on what element you use.

Side Effect:
Evoke [Element] spells have additional effects based on the type of element used. These side effects are presented in more detail in Chapter Three.

Opposed Alignments:
There are five alignments used in Elements of Magic spells – Chaos, Evil, Good, Law, and Balance. When an Evoke spell or other damaging effect deals alignment-based damage, its effect depends on the alignment of the targets. Some settings may not use alignments for normal characters, and if so, either get rid of alignment damage entirely, or only have it affect outsiders with the appropriate alignment, since outsiders are considered to inherently have that alignment.

Evoke Chaos, Evil, Good, and Law do normal damage to creatures of diametrically opposed alignments, half damage to creatures that are neutral in respect to the appropriate alignment, and no damage to creatures that
share the alignment.

Evoke Balance does normal damage to creatures with extreme alignments (LE, CE, LG, and CG), half damage to creatures that are neutral along one axis (NE, NG, LN, and CN), and no damage to true neutral creatures.

Damage Types and Objects:
In the core rules, acid, fire, and electricity effects do half damage to objects, and cold does quarter damage. In Elements of Magic, however, all elements simply do half damage to objects, unless noted in the side effects section in Chapter Three.

Objects that are magically imbued with elemental energy take damage just the same as creatures, receiving half again as much damage from opposed elements and none from friendly elements. Normal objects, however, can be harmed just fine. Nonmagical mud can be harmed by Ooze damage, for example.

Code:
Element       Friendly Elements          Opposed Elements           Related Ability Scores       Side Effect
Acid          Void, Water                Fire, Light, Sound         Intelligence, Wisdom         Dissolve
Air           Lightning, Mist, Sound     Lava, Ooze                 Dexterity                    Knockback
Crystal**     Ice, Light                 -                          Constitution, Strength       Physical Damage (piercing)
Death*        -                          Life                       Intelligence                 Inflict
Earth**       Lava, Ooze                 -                          Strength                     Physical Damage (bludgeoning)
Fire          Lava, Lightning            Acid, Ice, Water           Charisma                     Ignite
Force         -                          -                          -                            Force
Ice           Mist, Shadow               Fire, Lava                 Wisdom, Constitution         Freeze
Lava          Fire                       Air, Ice, Water            Charisma, Strength           Bake
Life*         -                          Death                      Constitution                 Life
Light         Sound, Void                Ice, Shadow                Charisma, Constitution       Blind
Lightning     Air, Fire, Light           Ooze, Shadow, Water        Charisma, Dexterity          Stun
Metal**       Ooze                       -                          Intelligence, Strength       Physical Damage (slashing)
Mist          Air, Water                 Fire, Lava                 Dexterity, Wisdom            Fog
Nature**      -                          -                          -                            Physical Damage
Ooze          Sound, Water               Air, Lightning             Strength, Wisdom             Slime
Shadow        Acid, Void                 Light, Lightning           Charisma, Intelligence       Extinguish
Sound         Air, Ice, Light            Void                       Dexterity, Constitution      Deafen
Space         -                          -                          -                            Planar
Time          -                          -                          -                            Temporality
Void          Shadow                     Air, Mist, Sound           Dexterity, Intelligence      Suffocate
Water         Acid, Mist, Ooze           Fire, Lava, Lightning      Wisdom                       Wash
* Note that the Death and Life elements oppose each other, but they do not deal half again as much damage to each other, as is the case with most opposed elements, like fire and water. This opposition is important for Hex spells, even though it doesn’t affect Evoke spells.
** No effects can deal energy damage of the Crystal, Earth, Metal, or Nature elements, so resistance against these elements only protects against the damage from listed friendly elements. Thus, an Earth creature is still immune to energy damage of Lava or Ooze sources. No effects provide Nature Resistance, however.

If it goes to far, no problem: I don't need to bring this system into core - it shouldn't be a biggie to houserule that myself.

BigRedRod said:
The non elemental sub-types suffer from a similar base problem, a simple lack of thought on the issue

If we leave the alignments and the points, I've made above, out, then the remaining problems should be resolvable.

Gez said:
My house-rule is that the list for favored enemies and bane weapons is thus: (snip)

Your list posted in #49 could be easily integrated, but your houserule is more patch to the current system, not a redo. Lupine isn't in parantheses and (Electricity) is too modern - I like Lightning better.
 

What do you think about a hierarchical classification? I envision something along the lines I outline below. Each level of a hierarchy would determine certain traits of the creature in question (hit dice, BAB, skill points, etc). The below list is probably not comprehensive and a few things could be added, modified or deleted but what do you think about the idea?

Creatures:

1. Life
A) Amorphids (Oozes)
B) Beasts
(i) Animals (Vertebrates)
(ii) Magical Beats
C) Chitinids (Arachnids, Crustaceans, Insects...)
D) Humanoids
(i) Humanids
(ii) Giants
(iii) Fey
E) Plants
2. Unlife
A) Automaton Undead
B) Conscious Undead
(i) Corporeal Undead
(ii) Incorporeal Undead
3. Constructs
4. Manifestations
A) Alignmental
B) Elementals
5. Abberations
 

RuleMaster said:
Your list posted in #49 could be easily integrated, but your houserule is more patch to the current system, not a redo. Lupine isn't in parantheses and (Electricity) is too modern - I like Lightning better.

Electricity is the term employed in the rules, the missing parenthesis are a typo, and my house-rule wasn't designed to force me to go through all the bestiaries I own, erasing and rewriting the integrality of every statblocks.

Roman, looking at your list: What about mindless incorporeal undead? What about non-humanoid feys?
 

Gez said:
Electricity is the term employed in the rules, the missing parenthesis are a typo, and my house-rule wasn't designed to force me to go through all the bestiaries I own, erasing and rewriting the integrality of every statblocks.

Maybe I've misinterpreted your post, but I thought, that your houserule was a proposal - as such it doesn't go far enough. For the use in your preparation, this houserule can be applied on-the-fly.

Roman:
Your hierarchy has the disadvantage, that it is a bunch of threads joined together. As such it is inherently one-dimensional, but D&D needs obviously a matrix as a basis (or maybe even more dimensions - depending how one looks at it). With Toungez's refined proposal, the demands of D&D seem to be fulfillable.

To all:
Noone mentioned so far an opinion, if the element-issue should be ignored or not. I won't vote for any direction, but this question should be solved, because we are relatively near by a milestone.
 

Don't get me wrong - I like Tonguez's new system. I also like Nellisir's idea of building monsters through classes. I just thought I would present a fourth alternative (after the official system, Tonguez's system and Nellisir's system) though. ;)

As to the problems with Dragons, it is not difficult to give them d12 hit dice. Just say that the sub-type 'Dragon' increases the hit dice (racial hit dice only) by one step. In the case of magical beasts, the category where true dragons fall, this would increase the hit dice from d10 to d12. In case of humanoids with the dragon sub-type, the racial hit dice would be increased from d8 to d10, but humanoids tend not to have very many racial hit dice anyway. To give true dragons more skill points and all good saves is more difficult if we want to avoid specifying true dragons as different from other creatures with the dragon sub-type...

Now back to the alternative system I proposed. I was considering including mindless incorporeal undead in the list, but could not think of any, so I did not. On second thoughts, however, incorporeal is probably truly better as a sub-type rather than a type within the undead category. The same is probably true of fey, though they could perhaps form a C group of manifestations (perhaps as manifestations of nature).



Creatures:


1. Constructs


2. Life

A) Amorphids
(i) Oozes
(ii) Molluscs (Invertebrates)

B) Beasts
(i) Animals (Vertebrates)
(ii) Magical Beats

C) Chitinids
(i) Arachnids
(ii) Crustaceans
(iii) Insects

D) Humanoids
(i) Humanids
(ii) Giants
(iii) Midgets (If Giants have their own category...)

E) Myconids (Fungi, Mushrooms...)

F) Plants


3. Manifestations
A) Alignmentals
B) Elementals


4. Unlife
A) Amalgations
B) Animated Body
(i) Bones
(ii) Decaying Flesh
(iii) Preserved Body
C) Spirits


*5. Abberations (Catch all for all others)*


The first level of types (designated by an arabic number followed by a period [1., 2., 3., 4. and 5.]) would determine some immunities and vulnerabilities, whether some spells effect the creatures concerned or not and what 'metabolic functions' the creature needs to perform to survive (breathing, eating, hydration, etc). For example, a spell that targets living creatures (such as slay living) would have no effect on Manifestations (formerly outsiders) or other non-living types.

The second level of types (designated by a capitalized letter followed by a closing bracket [A), B), C), D), E) and F)]) would determine more vulnerabilities and immunities (such as whether the creature is susceptible to critical hits), the effect or lack thereof of certain spells and the size of racial hit dice.

The third level of types (designated by a non-capitalized Roman numeral in a bracket [(i), (ii) and (iii)]) would determine the creature's saves, BAB and skill points, as well as some final immunities and vulnerabilities particularly with respect to susceptibility or lack thereof to certain spells.

For types that are only one level deep the first level type I can envision two possibilities:

1) First level type would determine all the above information
2) The 'missing' information would be determined for creatures individually

The same principle applies to types that are two levels deep. Also new types of third level (or perhaps even second level) can easily be added in this system if necessary.

Sub-types would exist as they do now, though there would also be a 'Dragon' sub-type and perhaps several more that would need to be added.
 
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