Critical Role Critical Role Campaign 3 Discussion (SPOILERS)

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Your first point answers the second. Resurrection is both rare and hard to accomplish in this world. Maybe Keyleth tried to draw them back but they didn't answer, or maybe it was determined before making the attempt that they'd moved on and should be allowed to rest.
Sure. Absolutely possible. As I said it's undeveloped on screen.
Keyleth isn't really a friend, though, just a passing acquaintance. Orym's made it clear that he wasn't that close to her. I really doubt that Keyleth spends her time reincarnating every friend-of-a-friend who dies in battle.
Except that Orym was personally tasked with finding the people who tried to assassinate Keyleth. If I remember right, he was given that task by Keyleth. So we have a situation where the 2nd-level fighter who's given the job of finding the people responsible for trying to murder a 20th-level druid has now found out who made the attempt and can go to Keyleth himself and tell her. "Oh, by the way, my friend died in combat against this person who tried to murder you. How about a little magic to bring her back?" There is no reasonable world where she'd say anything other than yes.

That's what I meant about it being problematic to have low-level characters with direct ties to high-level characters. It undermines the threats. As above, someone tried to kill off a 20th-level druid...so a 2nd-level fighter was sent to investigate. It's nonsensical.
Most importantly, though, can you imagine how that would come across? Bringing in Marisha's old character to save her new one, in one of those hugely-emotional ceremonies? That would be the weirdest case of nepotism/self-interest imaginable.
Marisha had nothing to do with it. Matt okay'ed Liam's character's backstory. Liam decided to have Keyleth as part of his backstory. Matt now has to either honor that backstory or deny it. If he honors it, there's no logical way besides a fudged roll or overly convenient distractions to keep Keyleth from helping...which utterly undermines the threats to the PCs. If he denies it, he undermines the story-focused nature of their play. "Yes, you can have connections with Keyleth, but no, she can never help you in any way whatsoever."
 

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OB1

Jedi Master
Marisha had nothing to do with it. Matt okay'ed Liam's character's backstory. Liam decided to have Keyleth as part of his backstory. Matt now has to either honor that backstory or deny it. If he honors it, there's no logical way besides a fudged roll or overly convenient distractions to keep Keyleth from helping...which utterly undermines the threats to the PCs. If he denies it, he undermines the story-focused nature of their play. "Yes, you can have connections with Keyleth, but no, she can never help you in any way whatsoever."
Except that there is an additional complication with Laudna's backstory that could provide another way to resolve this. Keyleth could want to help (especially because of the connection to the Briarwoods) but is unable to due to the nature of what Laudna is (was).

She could refuse to help out of fear of helping Delilah Briarwood's ultimate plan, could try to help but have the ritual fail, could try to help but bring back the 'original' soul of Laudna, could try to help but end up bringing back Delilah in Laudna's body, could try to help and successfully bring back the Laudna we know.

Before the ritual, some combination of Pike and Keyleth could have this exact conversation with BH, explaining the uncertainties and unknowns around the attempt, and the group could decide to not move forward.

Bottom line, I see no reason to block the attempt via Keyleth and/or Pike. The end result will likely result from a conversation between DM and Player and then a few dice rolls, the same as it would if it is any other NPC the players try to engage to get the job done.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Marisha had nothing to do with it. Matt okay'ed Liam's character's backstory. Liam decided to have Keyleth as part of his backstory. Matt now has to either honor that backstory or deny it. If he honors it, there's no logical way besides a fudged roll or overly convenient distractions to keep Keyleth from helping...which utterly undermines the threats to the PCs. If he denies it, he undermines the story-focused nature of their play. "Yes, you can have connections with Keyleth, but no, she can never help you in any way whatsoever."

Considering high level characters exist and CAN do things like Reincarnation, the threat level is already different. My personal view is that if you have things like raise dead, resurrection etc. being all convoluted about why they don't happen "in this case" is actually more hackneyed than if they're then used.

It's the same reason I absolutely hate adventures (Pathfinder is notorious for this) that hamstring high level abilities like legend lore, teleportation, divinations etc, for "reasons." Either make the ability available or don't, don't pretend it is (or will be) available and then yank it when the time comes up.

Now in this particular case? I trust that Matt, Marisha et all. will do what's best/most fun for their game and the story. WIll be interesting to see how it all sorts out.

One thing to add. In a "regular" game, I would NEVER have a player sit out for over a game session!?! It's just no fun for that player or for the table. One way streaming content like this is different.
 

One thing to add. In a "regular" game, I would NEVER have a player sit out for over a game session!?! It's just no fun for that player or for the table. One way streaming content like this is different.
Unless they can somehow bring Laudna back within one episode, I doubt Marisha will be on the bench for long...

If memory serves, Taliesin's second character in Campaign Two was ready to be introduced the episode after Mollymauk died, but the other players didn't get around to actually following up on the plot hook leading to him until the week after. I imagine Marisha will be back playing a backup character in similarly short order, regardless of how things ultimately go with Laudna.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Except that there is an additional complication with Laudna's backstory that could provide another way to resolve this. Keyleth could want to help (especially because of the connection to the Briarwoods) but is unable to due to the nature of what Laudna is (was).

She could refuse to help out of fear of helping Delilah Briarwood's ultimate plan, could try to help but have the ritual fail, could try to help but bring back the 'original' soul of Laudna, could try to help but end up bringing back Delilah in Laudna's body, could try to help and successfully bring back the Laudna we know.

Before the ritual, some combination of Pike and Keyleth could have this exact conversation with BH, explaining the uncertainties and unknowns around the attempt, and the group could decide to not move forward.
There's a lot of mixing in-character and out-of-character knowledge and tossing in random potential complications in this post. Healing magic works on whatever Matt calls revenants. There's nothing in the mechanics stopping raise dead or reincarnate from working on Laudna. According to Matt's bring back the dead house rules you call to the soul of the person, either they answer or they don't. Then there's the roll. Pass or fail. The only exception or complication to this we've seen in the entire time of CR live plays is Molly, Lucien, and Kingsley. Same soul, just fragments...or Matt and Taliesin set up the character to be a roulette wheel of personalities on death. It's possible Matt (and Marisha) set up Laudna to do something different with death and coming back. But we don't know. It strikes me as an odd assumption to make that doesn't really have any evidence as yet. Totally possible, sure. But no reason to assume.
Bottom line, I see no reason to block the attempt via Keyleth and/or Pike. The end result will likely result from a conversation between DM and Player and then a few dice rolls, the same as it would if it is any other NPC the players try to engage to get the job done.
In story, there's no reason not to use them and their resources. But that's not the only consideration. Relying on high-level NPCs to solve their problems undermines the PCs as main characters. If anything goes wrong, they can always just call in the big guns...which utterly undercuts any and all threats and consequences. It's one of the big reasons you don't let PCs have those kinds of connections.
 

wicked cool

Adventurer
Unless they can somehow bring Laudna back within one episode, I doubt Marisha will be on the bench for long...

If memory serves, Taliesin's second character in Campaign Two was ready to be introduced the episode after Mollymauk died, but the other players didn't get around to actually following up on the plot hook leading to him until the week after. I imagine Marisha will be back playing a backup character in similarly short order, regardless of how things ultimately go with Laudna.
She’s the only 1 not to have missed a single episode
 

wicked cool

Adventurer
There's a lot of mixing in-character and out-of-character knowledge and tossing in random potential complications in this post. Healing magic works on whatever Matt calls revenants. There's nothing in the mechanics stopping raise dead or reincarnate from working on Laudna. According to Matt's bring back the dead house rules you call to the soul of the person, either they answer or they don't. Then there's the roll. Pass or fail. The only exception or complication to this we've seen in the entire time of CR live plays is Molly, Lucien, and Kingsley. Same soul, just fragments...or Matt and Taliesin set up the character to be a roulette wheel of personalities on death. It's possible Matt (and Marisha) set up Laudna to do something different with death and coming back. But we don't know. It strikes me as an odd assumption to make that doesn't really have any evidence as yet. Totally possible, sure. But no reason to assume.

In story, there's no reason not to use them and their resources. But that's not the only consideration. Relying on high-level NPCs to solve their problems undermines the PCs as main characters. If anything goes wrong, they can always just call in the big guns...which utterly undercuts any and all threats and consequences. It's one of the big reasons you don't let PCs have those kinds of connections.
Strongly disagree. Done in novels all the time and I see no reason why low level characters can’t have those resources available. Tomb of annihilation premise was people are dying due to at some point being raised backup
There has to be consequences to this though
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Done in novels all the time
Important to note that RPGs are not novels. What works in one medium doesn’t necessarily work in another. This is a prime example. In a novel, the writer can just have the main characters not go for help all the time. In RPGs, you have to convince the players to not take the easy way out. I don’t know about you, but in my experience, the players will take the easy way out all the time every time.
 

wicked cool

Adventurer
Important to note that RPGs are not novels. What works in one medium doesn’t necessarily work in another. This is a prime example. In a novel, the writer can just have the main characters not go for help all the time. In RPGs, you have to convince the players to not take the easy way out. I don’t know about you, but in my experience, the players will take the easy way out all the time every time.
Agree but they are working for a high level character who also offered to help
 

jgsugden

Legend
I highly doubt that there will not be a dead raising spell in the next few sessions for Laudna. There is interest in the PC, and there are available resources.

The dice, however, may take her away permanently.

I'd put it at over a 50% chance Laudna is returned before the end of next session - and may return fully alive if Keyleth brings her back.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Agree but they are working for a high level character who also offered to help
Right. Eshteross is plausible to not be helpful. He simply doesn’t have the connections. Sorry. Makes sense. It’s plausible that there’s no 9th-level clerics in Jrusar. Less plausible than Estheross not having the right connections, but within the realm of making sense.

But then you have a PC with a direct connection to a 20th-level druid (Keyleth) and indirect connections to a 20th-level cleric (Pike), and any other clerics they might know. It doesn’t make sense that in that connection there’s no help. That creates a tension for the story and the players.

It comes down to giving the PCs the connections then not letting them use those connections in reasonable ways. If you’re not going to let them use the connection, don’t let them have it in the first place. But having that connection takes the teeth out of a lot of things.
 

wicked cool

Adventurer
Right. Eshteross is plausible to not be helpful. He simply doesn’t have the connections. Sorry. Makes sense. It’s plausible that there’s no 9th-level clerics in Jrusar. Less plausible than Estheross not having the right connections, but within the realm of making sense.

But then you have a PC with a direct connection to a 20th-level druid (Keyleth) and indirect connections to a 20th-level cleric (Pike), and any other clerics they might know. It doesn’t make sense that in that connection there’s no help. That creates a tension for the story and the players.

It comes down to giving the PCs the connections then not letting them use those connections in reasonable ways. If you’re not going to let them use the connection, don’t let them have it in the first place. But having that connection takes the teeth out of a lot of things.
Agree somewhat on the teeth. My opinion these last 2 episodes have been the most tense in a long time. The end of the episode where Matt had almost hinted that something was happening with ladna that if they hadn’t acted there was no turning back
 

There's a lot of mixing in-character and out-of-character knowledge and tossing in random potential complications in this post. Healing magic works on whatever Matt calls revenants. There's nothing in the mechanics stopping raise dead or reincarnate from working on Laudna. According to Matt's bring back the dead house rules you call to the soul of the person, either they answer or they don't. Then there's the roll. Pass or fail. The only exception or complication to this we've seen in the entire time of CR live plays is Molly, Lucien, and Kingsley. Same soul, just fragments...or Matt and Taliesin set up the character to be a roulette wheel of personalities on death. It's possible Matt (and Marisha) set up Laudna to do something different with death and coming back. But we don't know. It strikes me as an odd assumption to make that doesn't really have any evidence as yet. Totally possible, sure. But no reason to assume.
As I understand it, Laudna is a "Hollow One", which is described in the official Wildemount book as being someone whose soul has passed on even as their body clings to a semblance of their former life. I think this is absolutely one of those edge cases where some questions of whether traditional resurrection would even work could be expected.
 
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Ayeffkay

Villager
Several of the characters have close contact and connections to very powerful people who could easily bring Laudna back. Keyleth with reincarnation or Keyleth calling in Pike for a raise dead. This raises a lot of questions, like why didn't Keyleth do that when Orym's family was killed. Maybe that's a undeveloped plot point or it was just glossed over. Liam clearly pushed for this solution, but Matt seemed unsure or hesitant. Likely not wanting the higher-level NPC to simply snap their fingers and make it better or make it work. Which we saw a bit of in C2 with Essek being their taxi service for a few levels.
Matt has also shut down this kind of deus ex machina in the past, like when a certain player tried to get his father's army to deal with the thread instead of just playing Dungeons and Dragons.
 

BRayne

Adventurer
Matt has also shut down this kind of deus ex machina in the past, like when a certain player tried to get his father's army to deal with the thread instead of just playing Dungeons and Dragons.

I mean there is a difference between "Keyleth please kill Otahon for us" and "Keyleth please resurrect, or help us find someone to resurrect our friend". After all Pike was resurrected by a random npc cleric in exchange for a donation in the pre-stream days.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Matt has also shut down this kind of deus ex machina in the past, like when a certain player tried to get his father's army to deal with the thread instead of just playing Dungeons and Dragons.
Right. And that’s partially a problem. In the story, there’s zero reason Keyleth wouldn’t find out who the assassin is and handle it herself. A 20th-level druid is letting a band of 7th-level misfits do it instead. It’s “playing D&D” to handle it themselves, sure. But it makes the story nonsensical. When they’re playing a supposedly story-focused game of D&D, that’s a problem.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
Right. And that’s partially a problem. In the story, there’s zero reason Keyleth wouldn’t find out who the assassin is and handle it herself. A 20th-level druid is letting a band of 7th-level misfits do it instead. It’s “playing D&D” to handle it themselves, sure. But it makes the story nonsensical. When they’re playing a supposedly story-focused game of D&D, that’s a problem.
Well, why doesn’t the most senior accountant at H&R Block come do your taxes instead of letting you do them? Same basic reason.
 

Right. And that’s partially a problem. In the story, there’s zero reason Keyleth wouldn’t find out who the assassin is and handle it herself. A 20th-level druid is letting a band of 7th-level misfits do it instead. It’s “playing D&D” to handle it themselves, sure. But it makes the story nonsensical. When they’re playing a supposedly story-focused game of D&D, that’s a problem.
More specifically, Keyleth was never the kind of person to sit back and let other people do things for her. She was very pro-active as an adventurer, if somewhat lacking in self confidence, and it would be entirely IC for her to personally tree-BAMF into the scene and do a reincarnation, or find Pike with the same end result.

Granted, that was a 2 Year Window of Keyleth, compared to 30 Years Later Keyleth.
 

wedgeski

Adventurer
Whatever the outcome, I was riveted to both those episodes (as was my wife who, although a regular player of D&D, has until now shown no interest in Critical Role or RPG streams in general).
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Let's also remember to separate what characters in-world can do due to "gameplay reasons" versus what they can do due to narrative and world-building ones.

Characters in D&D can reach 20th level because that's what the game gives out as game awards for playing the game. And spellcaster characters can have 9 levels of spells and 22 spell slots each and every day for gameplay purposes in order to play the D&D game. But we should never confuse that with any sort of "in-world reality", because if we did the entirety of the existences of these worlds would break down. Look no further than the Create Water cantrip or the Plant Growth spell-- if these could be cast as often and as easily as "gameplay" allow them to be there would never be drought or famine in any world ever again.

But we players realize that the magic at our PCs fingertips that gives us interesting things to do in day-to-day gameplay cannot and should be assumed to exist in the same form or fashion as part of the narrative of world-building. Because then we have True Resurrections and Wishes all over the place.
 

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