Critical Rolls and the dreaded Natural 1

[Doppleganger]

Is rolling a natural 1 on a threat check considered an automatic failed confirmation? I would tend to think not at first glance. But strictly following the letter of the rules, it's a bit ambiguous as to how significantly a "critical roll" simulates an "attack roll".

Pertenant Rules Quotes (taken slightly out of context for brevity):

From critical hits:
"To find out if it's a critical hit, the combatant immediately makes a critical roll - another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll the combatant just made."

From attack melee:
"The attack roll is: d20 + Attack modifiers vs. AC of target. Attack modifiers consist of the combatant's base attack bonus, size adjustment, strength adjustment, and any other bonuses that apply to the attack roll. A natural 1 on the d20 is always a miss, and a natural 20 on the d20 is always a hit."

From critical hits:
"If the critical roll is a miss, then the combatant's hit is just a regular hit."

Strictly following only the d20/PHB/DMG rules, is a natural 1 on a "critical roll" considered an automatic failed crit confirmation thus resulting in a regular hit? (applicable in a situation where the "critical roll" total, including modifiers, is greater than the opponent's AC, but the number on the d20 was a natural 1)

Note:
I'm not so much interested in what you as a DM or player have decided for this, I'm more curious to hear your opinion on exactly what you think the rulebooks state. (That sentence came out a bit awkward, I hope you get what I meant)

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm not so much interested in what you as a DM or player have decided for this, I'm more curious to hear your opinion on exactly what you think the rulebooks state. (That sentence came out a bit awkward, I hope you get what I meant)

I hope also.

The confirmation roll is another attack roll, which does not affect at all the previous "normal" attack roll.

Being an attack roll itself, natural 1s and natural 20s apply to the confirmation roll as well.

 

[Doppleganger]

Okay, let's assume Regdar rolls a natural 20 on an attack, now it's time for his critical roll, keeping in mind that the rules clearly state that this "critical roll" is an "attack roll" itself. Regdar rolls another natural 20. Checking the rules it says:

From Critical Hits:
"When a combatant makes an attack roll and gets a natural 20, the combatant hits regardless of the target's AC, and the combatant has scored a threat."

This seems to imply that you have scored a new threat, another threat besides the first one you already scored. Of course, most of us would probably agree that there is no such thing as another threat ontop of the first one (common sense). However, there's nothing in the rules that says so.

For each "critical roll" (another attack roll), if you chose to follow these rules: "A natural 1 on the d20 is always a miss".

What stops you from following these others: (taken out of context to get to the point) "a natural 20 on the d20 is always a hit" thus confirming the critical, but also "When a combatant makes an attack roll and gets a natural 20, <snip>, and the combatant has scored a threat", "the combatant immediately makes a critical roll." Thus, requiring another threat check beyond the first.

(I'm playing devil's advocate here)

 

[hammymchamham]

I think you're just complicating something that shouldn't be. If on the first roll you roll a 20, you hit no matter the results of the confirmation roll. If you roll a 1, you just don't have a critical hit (you automatically miss the critical hit). Say Trug has a +20 to hit and is fighting someone with a 20 AC. He rolls a 20, and automatically hits. To confirm he rolls a 1. 1+20=21 which is enough to beat his targets AC, but he rolled a 1, so he misses the critical hit and rolls normal damage.

 

[Doppleganger]

I agree with you whole-heartedly on how it should be handled (and I also agree I'm over-complicating it by being "Spock-ish" in my approach).


My goal is to determine whether or not the "critical roll" is "special" attack roll, or exactly equal to an "attack roll".

If you take the position that it's exactly equal to an "attack roll", then how do you justify not following the core rule about a natural 20 requiring you to roll a threat check at that point?

If you take the position that the "critical roll" is actually "special" attack roll that doesn't follow the rule about rolling another threat check on a natural 20, then how did you spontaneously decide to follow the latter rule that a natural 1 should be an automatic miss?

See my point?

 

[Li Shenron]

I agree with you whole-heartedly on how it should be handled (and I also agree I'm over-complicating it by being "Spock-ish" in my approach).


My goal is to determine whether or not the "critical roll" is "special" attack roll, or exactly equal to an "attack roll".

If you take the position that it's exactly equal to an "attack roll", then how do you justify not following the core rule about a natural 20 requiring you to roll a threat check at that point?

If you take the position that the "critical roll" is actually "special" attack roll that doesn't follow the rule about rolling another threat check on a natural 20, then how did you spontaneously decide to follow the latter rule that a natural 1 should be an automatic miss?

See my point?

Don't take offense... it sounds you perfectly know what the rules mean, but you're having fun in catching the smallest logical hole in the book's explanation... you're diabolical

 

[hammymchamham]

If you take the position that it's exactly equal to an "attack roll", then how do you justify not following the core rule about a natural 20 requiring you to roll a threat check at that point?

One could also say that a Natural 20 on a threat is an automatic critical. Using the opposite of my above example, Trug is now fighting an AC 41 opponent, and rolls a 20, and to confirm, rolls a 20, an automatic critical. If he had rolled a 19 (not an automatic critical) and adds his +20, he hits AC 39, which is a miss.

Around the table this means:

PC: I attack!
DM: Ok roll
PC: I got a 20!
DM: Ok, roll to confirm
PC: I got a 20 again!
DM: Ok its a crit! roll damage

Quick and easy, no need to worry about the targets AC, no adding or subtracting needed.

Alternatively

PC: I attack!
DM: Ok roll
PC: I got a 20!
DM: Ok, roll to confirm
PC: Nuts I rolled a 1
DM: Ok roll damage, its just a normal hit

Again, quick and easy.

If you take the position that the "critical roll" is actually "special" attack roll that doesn't follow the rule about rolling another threat check on a natural 20, then how did you spontaneously decide to follow the latter rule that a natural 1 should be an automatic miss?

See above