D&D (2024) Is anyone at WOTC paying attention to what they print any more?

[ECMO3]

If they didn't, why would they allow success to end the effect rather than just tell us that it lasts for 1 minute with no further saves?

If you assume the wording is intended it is clearly because they want us to be able to succeed if you make the save, which can happen if you roll higher than the DC and are not Petrified, Unconscios, Paralyzed or Stunned when you do it.

If any of those conditions apply when you make the save you automatically fail.

 

[Maxperson]

If you assume the wording is intended it is clearly because they want us to be able to succeed if you make the save, which can happen if you roll higher than the DC and are not Petrified, Unconscios, Paralyzed or Stunned when you do it.

That's not possible without an extreme corner case, so it's clearly a wrong answer. Again, corner cases aren't something they write language for because it's waste of valuable book space. You are still ignoring how English works in order to make your argument. The way they call out the saves automatically means it's possible to make that save despite the more general paralyzation rules.

 

[ECMO3]

That's not possible without an extreme corner case, so it's clearly a wrong answer.

It is possible, off the top of my head - ring of free action, freedom of movement, Lessor Restoration, Hands of Healing and Wish can all either end or make you immune to Paralysis. Then there are Monsters that are immune to Paralysis too. I am sure there are many other examples.

Also if you happen to be Petrified, you can't succeed on the Dexterity saving throw, but you are immune to the poisoned condition that causes the Paralysis.

What is not possible is to succeed on a Dexterity save if you are Paralyzed, Petrified, Stunned or Unconscious without specific wording that contradicts or supersedes that general rule .... which we do not have here. If this is in fact intentional and they wanted an exception for this monster that allows you to succeed on Dexterity saves they would have said so in the text.

 

[pemerton]

It is possible, off the top of my head - ring of free action, freedom of movement, Lessor Restoration, Hands of Healing and Wish can all either end or make you immune to Paralysis. Then there are Monsters that are immune to Paralysis too. I am sure there are many other examples.

Also if you happen to be Petrified, you can't succeed on the Dexterity saving throw, but you are immune to the poisoned condition that causes the Paralysis.

It's not plausible that the author of the new MM wording for carrion crawlers had these instances in mind, and was intending to capture them in the rule that they wrote.

The fact that you can identify these instances that render the written rule coherent doesn't tell us what the rule should actually be.

I think we should stop rationalizing it as specific beat general and accept that the second save and further should be constitution based.

I fully agree with the first clause. It's obviously some sort of error.

Whether it should be a CON save, or a DEX save that breaks the normal paralysation rule, seems like a matter for each table to resolve as it prefers.

 

[Fifth Element]

"Is anyone at WOTC paying attention to what they print any more?"

Yes, because they got 99.9+% of things right.

But you find one erratum and make a post with a hyperbolic title like this.

Indeed. Especially since the "any more" suggests that previous editions had no such errors at all, which is obviously incorrect.

 

[Maxperson]

It is possible, off the top of my head - ring of free action, freedom of movement

No. Both of those prevent it in the first place. No save is necessary, so they are not exceptions.

Lessor Restoration

No. That ends poison. It doesn't give you a new save.

Hands of Healing and Wish can all either end or make you immune to Paralysis. Then there are Monsters that are immune to Paralysis too. I am sure there are many other examples.

All of which do not grant more saves.

I hope your many other examples are actual examples and not failed examples like those.

Also if you happen to be Petrified, you can't succeed on the Dexterity saving throw, but you are immune to the poisoned condition that causes the Paralysis.

Also not relevant. It would take an extreme corner case to allow a save while paralyzed, so the language they use means in English, the language they use, that you get specific save that overcomes the general paralysis rules.

You have yet to show how that specific RAW is overcome by the general paralysis RAW in defiance of specific beat general RAW. Why do you think that general beats specific in this situation?

 

[ECMO3]

No. That ends poison. It doesn't give you a new save.

Lessor Restoration ends one condition, that condition can be poisoned, paralyzed, blinded or deafened.

If a creature is poisoned by a Carrion Crawler and you use it to end the Paralyzed condition the creature can succeed at the save. It is not a "new" save it is the same save he gets at the end of his turn anyway, the only difference is it is possible to pass.

If you use Lessor Restoration to end poisoned then you the poison condition would end and you would not need to save.

If you use Lessor Restoration to end Blinded or Deafened on a creature that is poisoned by a Carrion Crawler then that creature would continue to get a save at the end of their turn and they would automatically fail that save if they were Paralyzed, Stunned or Unconscious.

In no case is there a "new save".

All of which do not grant more saves.

No RAW you get a DEX save at the end of every turn whether you are Paralyzed or not. Nothing gives you more saves, they just enable you to succeed at the save.

I hope your many other examples are actual examples and not failed examples like those.

There is nothing failed about my examples. All of them can end the Paralyzed condition and they can end it on a creature that is Poisoned by a Carrion Crawlers.

I can give you other examples too - Any of the many creatures with Legendary Resistance can choose to succeed after automatically failing the save due to being Paralyzed.

Polymorphing the victim into a Giant Crab would make it immune to Paralyzation, enabling a possible sucsessful save.

Also not relevant. It would take an extreme corner case to allow a save while paralyzed, so the language they use means in English, the language they use, that you get specific save that overcomes the general paralysis rules.

What do you mean allow a save while Paralyzed? Where do you get this? Being Paralyzed does not take away the save you make at the end of your turn.

They always get a save whether Paralyzed or not, they just automatically fail it if they are Paralyzed.

I think this is the main problem here - you seem to think that automatically failing a save is the same as not making a save.

You have yet to show how that specific RAW is overcome by the general paralysis RAW in defiance of specific beat general RAW. Why do you think that general beats specific in this situation?

What specific RAW? There is no written rule stating that you can pass the Dex save you make when poisoned by a Carrion Crawler prior to a minute. You are making this up when saying this specific RAW exists.

The specific rule stating the save suceeds after a minute does overide the general rule for being Paralyzed and this rule would aply for other conditions too, includin Unconscious or Stunned. There is no such specific rule in the wording before 1 minute though.

 

[ECMO3]

It's not plausible that the author of the new MM wording for carrion crawlers had these instances in mind, and was intending to capture them in the rule that they wrote.

It is not plausible in mind mind that they purposely made this a dexterity save, to break the effects of poison and they intended for you to succeed on that save while Paralyzed.

If the wording and type of save is in fact intentional (a big if and not likely IMO), then the intent is to keep Paralyzed individuals paralyzed until the one minute mark unless they somehow break the paralysis.

Whether it should be a CON save, or a DEX save that breaks the normal paralysation rule, seems like a matter for each table to resolve as it prefers.

If you want to homebrew it sure. If you want to stick to RAW though, neither of these are options.

 

[pemerton]

If you want to homebrew it sure. If you want to stick to RAW though, neither of these are options.

As I said, it is obviously an error. I don't see why anyone would "stick to it", with the result that carrion crawler paralysis does not - except in some edge cases - permit recovery during the course of a combat, unlike most other types of paralysis in the game.

It is not plausible in mind mind that they purposely made this a dexterity save, to break the effects of poison and they intended for you to succeed on that save while Paralyzed.

If the wording and type of save is in fact intentional (a big if and not likely IMO), then the intent is to keep Paralyzed individuals paralyzed until the one minute mark unless they somehow break the paralysis.

To me it seems obvious that whoever authored simply did not remember that being paralysed would preclude succeeding at the DEX save.

If they were working from a template for how to write these sorts of effects - which includes not changing save types from sentence to sentence of the effect - then it becomes especially easy to see how the mistake may have occurred.

 

[Maxperson]

Lessor Restoration ends one condition, that condition can be poisoned, paralyzed, blinded or deafened.

If a creature is poisoned by a Carrion Crawler and you use it to end the Paralyzed condition the creature can succeed at the save. It is not a "new" save it is the same save he gets at the end of his turn anyway, the only difference is it is possible to pass.

So if the person ends the paralyzed, and not the poison that takes the paralysis with it, he gets a save? So a corner case that will never happen even as a corner case, because no one is that dumb.

100% they did not write that sentence into the ability for this non-starter, or any other corner case. You're wasting your time trying to come up for one in order to ignore the RAW that allows it anyway.

You still have not overcome the RAW that in plain English means you get a save anyway. Specific beats general.