Critique my tactic: Rogue + Invisibility + Fireball

[Thurbane]

Hi all,

I'm looking to throw a new "tactic" into my party repertoir. It goes as follows:

Sorcerer casts Invisibility on the party Rogue, and the Cleric (me) throws on a Protection From Energy: Fire.

The party then ambushes an enemy group - the Rogue sneaks up (Invisibly) close to the group either his rapier or short-bow. He readies an action to attack as soon as the Fireball goes off. He selects a likely target, such as the enemy leader or a spellcaster.

The Sorcerer then drops the Fireball. Now, the Rogue will be in the area of effect, but if he saves he takes no damage (thanks to Evasion). If he fumbles, the Protction From Energy will see him OK. He then sneak attacks his target as a readied action.

Have I thought this through? Am I missing anything obvious?

Thanks - T

 

[Fieari]

Sounds reasonable to me. The bad guys get a listen check against the rogue's move silently, of course, so it might not go off exactly as planned. Beware of bad guys with true seeing, but that's not a problem until higher levels (I'd suspect).

 

[Jack Simth]

Sounds reasonable to me. The bad guys get a listen check against the rogue's move silently, of course, so it might not go off exactly as planned. Beware of bad guys with true seeing, but that's not a problem until higher levels (I'd suspect).

Do note that See Invisibility is at the exact same level as Invisibility.....

Edit:
A few things that will spoil this tactic:
Blindsense
Blindsight
Tremorsense
Lifesense
Detect Magic
Scent
Telepathy
Listen checks vs. your spellcasting (which has to be "in a strong voice" unless you're burning higher level slots on silenced spells).
Listen checks vs. your rogue's Move Silently (already mentioned)
Not seeing your opponents first (to get the Fireball in, you have to have line of sight and mostly line of effect to your target square - which means, unless the Sorcerer is invisible too (far from impossible, mind) they have to have the option of seeing you).
Things I haven't thought of.

 

[FalcWP]

Also, depending on the range and the make up of the rest of the party, make sure that the rogue doesn't isolate himself. If the initial fireball doesn't wipe everything out, he could end up facing a bunch of slightly scorched, very, very angry people, with the rest of the party (other than the sorc) well out of range. Not so much of a problem if there is, say, a ranger or barbarian, he should be ok - help can get there relatively soon. But if the melee backup is your cleric and the fighter, both in heavy armor, then crappy damage, or a number of people making their saves, or the rogue missing a sneak attack (or any of a number of other factors) could mean the rogue is dead before any backup arrives.

 

[Sejs]

Do note that See Invisibility is at the exact same level as Invisibility.....

Edit:
A few things that will spoil this tactic:
Detect Magic

Won't so much ruin it as it will really force your timetable. Detect Magic can't single out the location of an invisible person until the 3rd round of concentration. And frankly if the guy in the dress is giving the area ahead of him the stinkeye and the rogue fails to move in that time he deserves what he gets.

Telepathy

Won't help to detect the presence or pinpoint the location of an invisible person unless the telepath has the Mindsight feat.

 

[isoChron]

Hmm, someone might tell you that you can't ready an action outside of combat (before combat starts, means initiative is rolled). I can't find the rule in the SRD right now but I remember that from somewhere in the back of my brain.

 

[glass]

Hmm, someone might tell you that you can't ready an action outside of combat (before combat starts, means initiative is rolled). I can't find the rule in the SRD right now but I remember that from somewhere in the back of my brain.

Indeed you can't, otherwise noone would ever be without a readied action to 'attack anyone who attacks me'.

That said, you can shoot and the sorcerer can fireball in the surprise round (assuming you pull of your move silently rolls etc), and then since rogues tend to have good dex you might well get another sneak attck by winning init in the first round proper.

Basically it somes down to ambusher = good, ambushee = bad.


glass.

 

[Jack Simth]

Won't so much ruin it as it will really force your timetable. Detect Magic can't single out the location of an invisible person until the 3rd round of concentration. And frankly if the guy in the dress is giving the area ahead of him the stinkeye and the rogue fails to move in that time he deserves what he gets.

Detect Magic is:
Subject to Persistent Spell
Subject to Permanency
On the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Sor/Wiz list.
Has higher-level versions that are faster and longer duration (Arcane Sight)
Penetrates Bariers (to a degree; you can be looking through up to three feet of wood or dirt, one foot of stone, or an inch of common metal (lead only needs a thin sheet)). Detect Magic, if you can run it all day somehow, actually makes quite the effective alarm system.

It doesn't have to just be the guy in the dress. A DM that actually reads the spell can set up some... fun... areas, especially when you're depending on magical stealth.

Won't help to detect the presence or pinpoint the location of an invisible person unless the telepath has the Mindsight feat.

And how's that a problem if you try to abuse a tactic?

 

[Thanee]

A 'simple' Spot check against DC 20 will tell the bad guys, that there is someone invisible sneaking around. Also, when your party is not too close, you will have the problem, that everyone will concentrate on you during the first round.

Why don't you just use the bow from where the wizard is (or from a closer distance, so you are within 30 ft. for sneak attacking)?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

One of the first things I did with 3.0 was a testmatch of two groups of characters. One was the barbaric team (bbn6, 2 bbn2/rog3, bbn1/brd5, sor6, bbn1/druid5) vs your average Joe Nextdoor team (ftr6, clr6, wiz6, halfing rog6, monk6, rgr6).

The tactic was similar... chase the melee dudes (bbn6 and the 2 bbn/rogs) into the fray and plaster the field with fireballs from the sorcerer. It worked wonderfully for the barbarian team... the sneak attacks in melee with greataxes plus rage disposed the cleric and the wiz and the monk pretty fast while the fireballs only caused a little bit hp loss for the own team.

But even with the extra hitpoints from the barbarian levels the bbn/rogues nearly died against the fighter (dwarven fighter who nearly managed to win alone against fireballs and the three melee monsters).

So if your rogue isn't a ftr/rog with good AC and perhaps a polearm: Don't do it. Or get a cape of the Mountebank...