Crows, James Introcasos MCDM Dungeon Crawler RPG

[Mannahnin]

You may have noticed that this is mainly a TTRPG community, so whatever weird possessiveness board gamers have over mechanics I can't speak to. But video games not copying each other? LOL.

Anyway, more importantly, using an existing system as a foundation is NOT the same thing as "not doing the work." That is what is rude: accusing a designer of not really being a designer because they started with an SRD. i don't know how much game design work you have done, but making a new game even when using an SRD is a serious commitment and requires serious effort, patience and skill.

And finally just a pet peeve: Shadowdark is far closer to B/X than it is 5E; it borrows, what, one mechanic (advantage/disadvantage) that was a 5E innovation?

Yup. The smoothed ability modifier scaling and unified d20+mod vs DC are originally from 3E.

 

[HatWearingFool]

But the main purpose is that its there to make 5E products. Because without such an SRD its hard to make your own classes, subclasses etc. And no one forces people to copy 5E for their own games. Its a choice to copy it instead of doing your own work.

Game mechanics also cant be protected most of the time. So its also legal to just copy a boardgame from another and give it different names, but still the boardgame community does react badly when people do. Thats one of the reasons why in mainstream boardgames there is so much more innovation than in RPGs.


People state in here that they want more innovation in dungeon crawlers, but then do reward copying others. For boardgame prizes copies of monopoly are excluded from even having the chance to receive a reward, thanks to that there are 188 different boardgame mechanics listed on BGG, not just roll and move, while RPGs are still mostly stuck with "roll to hit".



And in boardgaming (and many other places) its considered rude to copy other peoples work, even if it is legal.

I think there is already a lot innovations in TTRPGs already. Many are not even roll to hit.

The problem is that for whatever reason D&D takes up all of the air in the ttrpg space. And it’s much easier to get people to try something “new” if they don’t have to learn many new rules or way of doing things.

Unlike board games (excluding campaigns in a box like Gloomhaven,agemonia, etc) most people don’t play the same board game every game night for a year or two so board gamers are used to learning different mechanics and doing different things.

There are tons of ttrpgs out there with wildly different rules they just don’t see much play in comparison to D&D. It’s just a different culture and the market rewards games that use the same core as D&D.

With Daggerheart and Drawsteel we are finally starting to see a tiny shift away from the current ttrpg market dynamic, but I’m not sure why now.

Maybe there are just so many people playing ttrpg’s now there is starting to be a culture shift?

 

[overgeeked]

With Daggerheart and Drawsteel we are finally starting to see a tiny shift away from the current ttrpg market dynamic, but I’m not sure why now.

Ten years of playing the same thing, a new edition that’s not different enough to be justified, the OGL debacle, or something as simple as people they trust making those games.

Maybe there are just so many people playing ttrpg’s now there is starting to be a culture shift?

No. Prior to 5E and the flood of new D&D-only people thanks to Stranger Things and Critical Role, the hobby was much healthier and people played a far wider selection of games. In fact, D&D nearly died because people were playing other games. Weirdly, this also happened when TSR brought out a “clean-up” edition rather than something actually different, i.e. AD&D 2E.

 

[Reynard]

Ten years of playing the same thing, a new edition that’s not different enough to be justified, the OGL debacle, or something as simple as people they trust making those games.

No. Prior to 5E and the flood of new D&D-only people thanks to Stranger Things and Critical Role, the hobby was much healthier and people played a far wider selection of games. In fact, D&D nearly died because people were playing other games. Weirdly, this also happened when TSR brought out a “clean-up” edition rather than something actually different, i.e. AD&D 2E.

I do think a lot of people have had their fill of D&D/5E. Many of them will leave the hobby, of course, but some will stay and try new games, and that is good for everyone. And like our generation, when WotC finally gets around to a real 6E, lots will "come back" to try it.

 

[HatWearingFool]

Ten years of playing the same thing, a new edition that’s not different enough to be justified, the OGL debacle, or something as simple as people they trust making those games.

No. Prior to 5E and the flood of new D&D-only people thanks to Stranger Things and Critical Role, the hobby was much healthier and people played a far wider selection of games. In fact, D&D nearly died because people were playing other games. Weirdly, this also happened when TSR brought out a “clean-up” edition rather than something actually different, i.e. AD&D 2E.

I’ve been playing since the 80’s and I’ve always found it a struggle to find people who are playing something different than D&D. But I’m aware that’s just my anecdotal experience. But it has always seemed like D&D (since 3rd edition for sure) is 95% (randomly picked big number) of the TTRPG market.

Currently struggling to convince some people to play Draw Steel

 

[Composer99]

Using the 5e SRD as a basis for your own game - or using any RPG 'game engine' that happened to be built for a specific game but is openly available via licensing arrangement - is functionally equivalent to, say, using the Unity engine for a video game, save that a typical RPG 'game engine' tends to be more constrained due to its use by humans instead of computers and the specifics of the game for which it was originally developed.

The idea that this is 'copying' seems... unusual to me.

 

[Tigris]

Using the 5e SRD as a basis for your own game - or using any RPG 'game engine' that happened to be built for a specific game but is openly available via licensing arrangement - is functionally equivalent to, say, using the Unity engine for a video game, save that a typical RPG 'game engine' tends to be more constrained due to its use by humans instead of computers and the specifics of the game for which it was originally developed.

The idea that this is 'copying' seems... unusual to me.

It is really not close to this at all.

5E is one specific game. It is not a game engine, it does not even come close. 5E has fixed game mechanics, and they are pretty limited. If you even use the same theme (fantasy world with dangerous dungeons and monsters) etc. its even more limited

This is more akin to using a premade game from the unity asset store, then change some small things and release it. Which is called an "asset flip" when it comes to games: Asset flip - Wikipedia


An actual game engine allows you to use any game mechanics you want, and does not define them for you, like an SRD which is a game mechanic document.

I can implement in Unity a game using any of these 188 game mechanics: Browse Board Game Mechanics | BoardGameGeek when I use an SRD I use the exact same mechanics that game has (maybe I leave part away maybe I add some more).

 

[Mannahnin]

when I use an SRD I use the exact same mechanics that game has (maybe I leave part away maybe I add some more).

The SRD gives you license to use any or all of the mechanics therein, and to fold, spindle, or mutilate them in the process.

Really the only 5E-originated mechanic Shadowdark uses is advantage/disadvantage. Practically everything else in there people might be familiar with from 5E originated in an earlier edition.

 

[Reynard]

It is really not close to this at all.

5E is one specific game. It is not a game engine, it does not even come close. 5E has fixed game mechanics, and they are pretty limited. If you even use the same theme (fantasy world with dangerous dungeons and monsters) etc. its even more limited

This is more akin to using a premade game from the unity asset store, then change some small things and release it. Which is called an "asset flip" when it comes to games: Asset flip - Wikipedia


An actual game engine allows you to use any game mechanics you want, and does not define them for you, like an SRD which is a game mechanic document.

I can implement in Unity a game using any of these 188 game mechanics: Browse Board Game Mechanics | BoardGameGeek when I use an SRD I use the exact same mechanics that game has (maybe I leave part away maybe I add some more).

I don't think you have actually read Shadowdark.

 

[Mannahnin]

I don't think you have actually read Shadowdark.

Based on his Reddit post it looks like he skimmed it. Lots of missed and misunderstood details.