CRs/ELs -- apparently the designers don't read the rules they talk about (old thread)

[WayneLigon]

Given that CR- and EL-based encounter creation is as much an art as it is a science, I'm pretty sure they know more than most what makes an acceptable encounter at such and such a level, and that the numbers convey the normal amount of wiggle-room in the system.

Then, too, remember that for months - in some sense, years - they've basically been playing 4E, and when you do that your rules mastery of previous editions slips. For a casual blog post, ballpark figures are going to be the norm and doesn't really indicate 'OMG the designers don't know the game they wrote'.

 

[freyar]

Given that CR- and EL-based encounter creation is as much an art as it is a science, I'm pretty sure they know more than most what makes an acceptable encounter at such and such a level, and that the numbers convey the normal amount of wiggle-room in the system.

Then, too, remember that for months - in some sense, years - they've basically been playing 4E, and when you do that your rules mastery of previous editions slips. For a casual blog post, ballpark figures are going to be the norm and doesn't really indicate 'OMG the designers don't know the game they wrote'.

The problem is that these weren't ballpark figures but a systematic exposition of only EL 1 encounters, completely (and some might suspiciously say intentionally) ignoring the fact that you are told in the DMG to send higher ELs at your 1st level party.

BTW, I like a lot of what I hear about the 4e mechanics, especially as I think more about it. But I think that some of the "complaints" about 3.X are a little disingenuous.

 

[Wraith Form]

"doesn't really indicate 'OMG the designers don't know the game they wrote'"

...Or does it--?!?!?

 

[Khairn]

Quas, that's a good call. Unfortunately (IMO) this type of example is apparently becoming more typical of WotC's attempts to explain how the developers are creating "fun", while what we've been enjoying for the last few years has clearly been badwrongfun.

 

[Spatula]

Yeah, that bothered me as well. Doesn't inspire much confidence in their game design credentials, either.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Good spot. That's just bizarre.

To be fair, this seems to be one of the most persistent myths of 3e D&D. You see it over and over again in complaints from all sides, despite the fact that it directly contradicts the encounter design guidelines in the DMG.

Does SWSE, for example, facilitate large groups of mook enemies better than D&D 3.5? Yes, I'd say it handles and assumes about 1.5x to 2x the number of mooks on average. But that average goes up more than anything because their individual actions process faster, so the game runs smoothly even with large numbers. The bonus 1st level hp for PCs are almost an afterthought.

The comparison with Keep on the Borderlands is particularly interesting, though.

 

[Yalius]

Dude, it's marketing. What do you expect them to say? "Well, really, last year's product was just as good as the one we're producing this year, but buy our new stuff anyways, 'cause I've got a kid in college, an 11-year-old with braces and an $800-a-month payment on my Navigator?"

I mean, that's business 101. Emphasize the old product's flaws, even exaggerate them, to make the new product look better. And honestly, they're gonna sell a boatload of 4e to a lot of people, including about 80% of the naysayers. Because it will probably be a pretty good product with a little more polish and some improvements over 3e, and it'll be priced at what the majority of players can afford without wincing. Why is that so bad?

 

[MerricB]

Please note that this is Mike Mearls, D&D Fan, talking about his first experiences with D&D 3e.

Not Mike Mearls, experienced d20 System designer.

The way that the CR/EL system looks on first sight is as he describes it. And it also is very, very wonky once you start adding multiple opponents (more than 4) to an encounter.

Cheers!

 

[dmccoy1693]

Dude, it's marketing.

And that is why the marketing people are always Lawful Evil Devils and not CE Demons.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Pardon me as I chuckle just a little bit . . . now the 3e fans are feeling what fans of older editions felt in 1999; that is, you're being told by the designers that the edition you like has crappy rules (as they are misinterpreted and misapprehended by those designers).

I'm reminded of the episode of Futurama where they unfreeze the "80s Guy," and elect him to run Planet Express: "As my first order of business, I blame all the company's problems on the guy before me."