DragonLancer
Hero
This would also be my response. Just because the PCs don't find the clues doesn't mean that the campaign grinds to halt. It just means that events continue and they can rejoin the timeline as said events unfold.
Crucial clue missed (by a mile and a half) - What will you do?
- Thread starter Jon_Dahl
- Start date
This would also be my response. Just because the PCs don't find the clues doesn't mean that the campaign grinds to halt. It just means that events continue and they can rejoin the timeline as said events unfold.
tuxgeo
Adventurer
First: pretty much All Of The Above. You set the situation up that way, and you are learning that that was a bad way to set up the situation.
What you should do now it to learn from that experience; and learn from all of the comments above. [For details of Rule-Of-Three and other stuff, see above.]
Second: [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] -- I Google'd "Naeser's Law" and came up empty. Does anybody else other than you use that name to refer to [nothing is damnfoolproof]? Could you provide a link where it is called that?
Third: My own original contribution to this discussion:
Bad Carrot: You are using the wrong "carrot" (and you can ignore the stick for the moment) for that particular group of players. They're working toward gaining XP, which comes mainly from "kill-them-and-finish-quests" in the official books; so "kill-them-and-finish-quests"is what the party's PCs mainly do.
So: If you want them to roleplay more, or search more, then explicity offer XP for roleplaying and for searching, and remind them about that offer at the start and and at the end of each session.
Also, explicity "sum up" at the end of each adventure arc, and tell the players the nature, but not the details, of all of the things that they missed. (For a good example, I like Chris Perkins' summation at the end of the Penny Arcade adventure that started in Hammerfast and that led the party to invade the Ambershards -- he told the party just how much they had failed to accomplish, and it was a lot!)
(Of course this is metagamish. It has to be. Don't try to do this during roleplaying.)
What you should do now it to learn from that experience; and learn from all of the comments above. [For details of Rule-Of-Three and other stuff, see above.]
Second: [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] -- I Google'd "Naeser's Law" and came up empty. Does anybody else other than you use that name to refer to [nothing is damnfoolproof]? Could you provide a link where it is called that?
Third: My own original contribution to this discussion:
Bad Carrot: You are using the wrong "carrot" (and you can ignore the stick for the moment) for that particular group of players. They're working toward gaining XP, which comes mainly from "kill-them-and-finish-quests" in the official books; so "kill-them-and-finish-quests"is what the party's PCs mainly do.
So: If you want them to roleplay more, or search more, then explicity offer XP for roleplaying and for searching, and remind them about that offer at the start and and at the end of each session.
Also, explicity "sum up" at the end of each adventure arc, and tell the players the nature, but not the details, of all of the things that they missed. (For a good example, I like Chris Perkins' summation at the end of the Penny Arcade adventure that started in Hammerfast and that led the party to invade the Ambershards -- he told the party just how much they had failed to accomplish, and it was a lot!)
(Of course this is metagamish. It has to be. Don't try to do this during roleplaying.)
Lots of good replies so far, I really have to take note of that Three Clue -rule. It's something that makes a world of sense but still something that hasn't really came into my mind.
Just to shed more light to the adventure/campaign that I'm running:
It's Shadows over Istivin. (Spoiler alert!). In the end of the first chapter PCs face a mad wizard who is literally the only person on the world who has the clue that will carry the story onwards to parts II and III. I mean seriously, there's no other way to proceed than to find the secret compartment that contains a name of a key person.
Part II is 100% about finding this key person. It's the dynamo, there's no question.
There's no way to accidently bump into this key person, because he's hiding far away.
No one else in the world knows about the key person. The adventure actually has the smartest man in the world and he has HIRED PCs to find this information.
Also there's no physical proof of the existence of the key person lying around anywhere, because it wouldn't make any sense and it wouldn't be consistent with the story.
This mad wizard is unable to speak about the key person since he's too crazy to say anything that makes sense at all. He has also kept things in secret for years, so why reveal everything right now? There's no point.
So this adventure has carefully made sure that this secret compartment has to be found in order to proceed. Anything else would seem a bit random. Suddenly there's information that was overlooked by the smartest man in the world after years of search? And it seems out of character that this mad wizard would blurt out clues while actively trying to kill the PCs - clues that he has been hiding in his secret diary.
I do agree with Umbran about the noodle whip. I guess I will just have to put the diary in open view. Before I created this thread, I was going to just go along with the story and face the inevitable but now... now this diary is going to be bright red and have a hovering exclamation mark over it.
Just to shed more light to the adventure/campaign that I'm running:
It's Shadows over Istivin. (Spoiler alert!). In the end of the first chapter PCs face a mad wizard who is literally the only person on the world who has the clue that will carry the story onwards to parts II and III. I mean seriously, there's no other way to proceed than to find the secret compartment that contains a name of a key person.
Part II is 100% about finding this key person. It's the dynamo, there's no question.
There's no way to accidently bump into this key person, because he's hiding far away.
No one else in the world knows about the key person. The adventure actually has the smartest man in the world and he has HIRED PCs to find this information.
Also there's no physical proof of the existence of the key person lying around anywhere, because it wouldn't make any sense and it wouldn't be consistent with the story.
This mad wizard is unable to speak about the key person since he's too crazy to say anything that makes sense at all. He has also kept things in secret for years, so why reveal everything right now? There's no point.
So this adventure has carefully made sure that this secret compartment has to be found in order to proceed. Anything else would seem a bit random. Suddenly there's information that was overlooked by the smartest man in the world after years of search? And it seems out of character that this mad wizard would blurt out clues while actively trying to kill the PCs - clues that he has been hiding in his secret diary.
I do agree with Umbran about the noodle whip. I guess I will just have to put the diary in open view. Before I created this thread, I was going to just go along with the story and face the inevitable but now... now this diary is going to be bright red and have a hovering exclamation mark over it.
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There shall be no crucial clues.
If they manage to miss a whole bunch of clues that are cumulatively crucial I try first to introduce even more clues. If that fails as a last resort I have something happen that will push them forward by force: either an NPC "explains" the clues or they hear about where they should go.
If OTOH, they misunderstand the clues completely, there's the additional option (that I've used) of having them be right after all. This means scrapping some planned plot, but improvisation is fun.
If they manage to miss a whole bunch of clues that are cumulatively crucial I try first to introduce even more clues. If that fails as a last resort I have something happen that will push them forward by force: either an NPC "explains" the clues or they hear about where they should go.
If OTOH, they misunderstand the clues completely, there's the additional option (that I've used) of having them be right after all. This means scrapping some planned plot, but improvisation is fun.
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Dr. Charles Naeser was a professor of Chemistry at George Washington University. He taught freshmen chemistry labs for many years, and that experience inspired the Law: "You can make it foolproof, but you can't make it damned foolproof."
Naeser, Charles R - GWUEncyc
SnowleopardVK
First Post
I picked other, to represent the "oh well" response.
If they overlooked something they were looking for, they'll find it eventually. If they overlooked a treasure or plot hook, oh well. It's not really my fault if they decide to not look around, and there'll be other treasures and plot hooks.
They'll simply end up on a different adventure with different stuff in their packs.
If they overlooked something they were looking for, they'll find it eventually. If they overlooked a treasure or plot hook, oh well. It's not really my fault if they decide to not look around, and there'll be other treasures and plot hooks.
They'll simply end up on a different adventure with different stuff in their packs.
G
Guest 85555
Guest
As long as missing the clue doesn't lead to the end of the campaign or nothing happening this is find. If you have a whole potential campaign from that one clue, but also have stuff going on if they miss it, that means their choices really matter. Checking for that one clue could lead in a whole different direction than going back to town after the battle (where I assume you have other stuff planted).
Mysteries in RPGs are fun, but bring their own challenges. I'm doing the same and thoroughly endorse the 3-Clue-Rule.
So what else is in the secret compartment? Put something flashy and unique in there. Maybe something that the "smartest person in the world" also wants. "By the way, after you kill the crazy wizard and learn where Mr. Maguffin lives, could you also bring back Ol' Crazy's Tongue Stud of Steven Tyler Screaming +5? I've been eying it for a long time and I know he always keeps it nearby."
Or the crazy wizard could have had a prisoner who observed him coming and going with something obvious like his Purple Feathered Fedora of Easy Pimpin' that just doesn't seem to be in the room at the moment.
Is there anyone else in the world on this same quest? Another adventuring group to team up with or compete against? They don't only have to get clues and direction from their sponsor.
~Tam
So what else is in the secret compartment? Put something flashy and unique in there. Maybe something that the "smartest person in the world" also wants. "By the way, after you kill the crazy wizard and learn where Mr. Maguffin lives, could you also bring back Ol' Crazy's Tongue Stud of Steven Tyler Screaming +5? I've been eying it for a long time and I know he always keeps it nearby."
Or the crazy wizard could have had a prisoner who observed him coming and going with something obvious like his Purple Feathered Fedora of Easy Pimpin' that just doesn't seem to be in the room at the moment.
Is there anyone else in the world on this same quest? Another adventuring group to team up with or compete against? They don't only have to get clues and direction from their sponsor.
~Tam
Traveon Wyvernspur
First Post
I understand that you are trying to do this per what the module says, but apparently the module is just written wrong. I always give other ways for the PCs to find out information, whether it be arcane, divine, or sleuth-type methods. There are always ways even if the "smartest man in the world" can't figure it out, he couldn't have tried every single scenario and accounted for every single variable out there - and that's apparently why he hired the PCs. I reward my players for thinking outside the box in these types of scenarios and I try to give 3 or more clues to things that they "need" to find in my campaigns as others have stated previously in this thread.
Basically if I had to run this adventure, I'd probably do the same thing you are thinking of doing.
1) PCs happen to barge in on him when he's got the compartment open - the book, scrolls, or super-secret macduffin out in the open (if I knew my PCs didn't like to actually search for things).
2) If you have a cleric/paladin/holy man in the group send them some sort of divine guidance from their deity (perhaps a dream) in which direction they should go as part of the quest. I like to do this sometimes in my campaigns to point them in the direction that they should be going even if they do it in a roundabout way.
3) Put the clue somewhere else, in an ancient text of prophecy perhaps, giving them another reason to pursue the course with a detailed explanation of doom befalling the city/country/world if the heroes failed to act and find the hidden wizard.
4) Have them find an artifact that he made and give them clues that allow them to trace down who made it. Perhaps there are more pieces to be collected and they need to find out why he built the device or if he has other devices that they can use. Allowing them to use spells to divine or find the location of the maker.
There are so many ways you can make this really fun and really interesting, depending on what the flavor of your campaign world is. Hopefully you find what you are looking for in terms of advice here and then you and your players have a great time role-playing it out!
Cheers!
Trav
Basically if I had to run this adventure, I'd probably do the same thing you are thinking of doing.
1) PCs happen to barge in on him when he's got the compartment open - the book, scrolls, or super-secret macduffin out in the open (if I knew my PCs didn't like to actually search for things).
2) If you have a cleric/paladin/holy man in the group send them some sort of divine guidance from their deity (perhaps a dream) in which direction they should go as part of the quest. I like to do this sometimes in my campaigns to point them in the direction that they should be going even if they do it in a roundabout way.
3) Put the clue somewhere else, in an ancient text of prophecy perhaps, giving them another reason to pursue the course with a detailed explanation of doom befalling the city/country/world if the heroes failed to act and find the hidden wizard.
4) Have them find an artifact that he made and give them clues that allow them to trace down who made it. Perhaps there are more pieces to be collected and they need to find out why he built the device or if he has other devices that they can use. Allowing them to use spells to divine or find the location of the maker.
There are so many ways you can make this really fun and really interesting, depending on what the flavor of your campaign world is. Hopefully you find what you are looking for in terms of advice here and then you and your players have a great time role-playing it out!
Cheers!
Trav
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