Curiosity will probably kill me, but…

[Tormenet]

Curiosity will probably kill me, but…

Hi all:

My players and I will be converting from D&D 3.5 to a Grim Tales/Black Company hybrid.

In setting out my vision for the conversion's endpoint, I wrote the following goals:

• interesting variety for players who do not want high level characters that have no "cool" powers

• a DM that hates high level characters that are "gods" (Zeus? I spit on Zeus. Let’s go to Olympus and kill them all.)

• a setting where magic is low, but neither abolished nor wimpy

My interest is in reforming magic is to get rid of things like:

• Divination, takes the mystery out of the game (I just keep asking God questions each day, rather than investigating and such)

• raise dead ("Just raise me guys" the player says as he runs into the Ice Storm)

• the total reworking of a world necessary to account for how the residents would account for magic (no phalanxs if plentiful fireballs would rip them apart, no walls if other team can just teleport/fly in)

I do not want to start a high magic/low magic debate, we have all read those, but I am curious to hear your reactions to these thoughts.

Tormenet

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Do you use Grim Tales' class Defense system?

I'm running a game kind of like that now, but I'm using D20 Modern rules for it.

 

[Arrgh! Mark!]

I think the ideas are pretty cool. About the magic - I'd suggest you remove evocation, not divination. Force all wizards to specialise.

Divination isn't bad. Most of the powerful spells have potential risks. Evocation makes the game suddenly go from deep greens and blacks to four-colour superhero. Divination gives wizards what wizards always have had; knowledge they shouldn't. It makes them mysterious.

I've never thought Gods should have character classes or be in the direct combat league of anyone; or personified for that matter. Thats just me, though; I think treating gods as basically epic-level characters is silly.

I would support the lack of a raise dead spell. However, this does things to high-level games that are quite nasty. A system that I stole from someone was the first time someone reached -10 hp, they choose to die or take a horribly scarring wound (-1d4 con and cha).

Your theories for making a grim-tales style world seem fair enough to me. Grim tales tends to let characters at low levels have different abilities as well, which is good.

 

[Yair]

I do not want to start a high magic/low magic debate, we have all read those, but I am curious to hear your reactions to these thoughts.

I'll bite.

interesting variety for players who do not want high level characters that have no "cool" powers

Hmmm, I don't really see this as a problem. High level characters typically do have cool powers. I can't really think of a high-level D&D character without thinking of some cool powers he has (sometimes due to magic items, but hey).

a DM that hates high level characters that are "gods" (Zeus? I spit on Zeus. Let’s go to Olympus and kill them all.)

Mmmm.... again, not a problem for me. If I want a lower power level, I just lower thge advancement rate and play at lower levels. I don't have a problem with the power of high-level characters being awesome, they are high-level characters.

a setting where magic is low, but neither abolished nor wimpy

What makes it "low", then? It isn't "rare" apparently, nor "weak", I don't get it.
I like a setting where magic is rare, abolished, dangerous, risky, and powerful... like the Iron Heroes hype, really. Failing that, I want magic that is predictable and part and parcel of the gameworld, like in D&D but with a world that is self-consistent (like Eberron tries to be).

Divination, takes the mystery out of the game (I just keep asking God questions each day, rather than investigating and such)

I agree. I am even against minor divinations, like detect poison or evil; the world is just a far more frightening, uncertain, and hence - interesting place without them.

raise dead ("Just raise me guys" the player says as he runs into the Ice Storm)

Your PLAYER expects you to raise him ?!!
Kidding aside, I'm torn on that. On the one hand, being able to raise dead cheapens life. On the other it allows the players to keep playing the characters they love. Ultimately, I think it's a good thing but should be properly incorporated into the setting and ways to circumvent raising (destrying/capturing the soul) should be kept in mind.

the total reworking of a world necessary to account for how the residents would account for magic (no phalanxs if plentiful fireballs would rip them apart, no walls if other team can just teleport/fly in)

That is, indeed, a problem. That's why I prefer a rare magic world.
I also like subtle magic, especially for divine magic. I have toyed with the idea that clerics/priests have powerful buffing spells, but these provide only (unseen) bonuses - such as a +2 morale bonus to saves, a +4 sacred bonus to damage, and so on.
Scratching off every divination and evocation spell from your world's spell lists will do wonders towards making your spellcasters more "classic" in feel - summoning beasties, turning people to stone, and so on.

 

[LostSoul]

I do not want to start a high magic/low magic debate, we have all read those, but I am curious to hear your reactions to these thoughts.

I think that it's a really good idea to start out with a list of design goals for your campaign. That way, everyone knows what you're aiming for.

Regarding Divination spells, I always thought they were really cool. With Divination spells, players can use their PCs to gather information and connect the dots without having to rely on the DM to do so for them. Which is another way of saying, "I think that Divination spells allow the players to be proactive."

 

[Henry]

Personally, the more I read it, I'd go with straight Black Company; GT/BCmagic is cool as heck, (played it at a gameday) but the myriad of classes and backgrounds means that almost any fantasy character can be built, and the magic system, being already integrated, needs no tweaking. The PCs fit your "interesting but not godlike" as the higher level abilities allow some spectacular things, but the characters are never immune. It's gritty enough, while not being overbearing in the "insta-death" rules. However, FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, DON'T GET AMBUSHED IN THAT SYSTEM!!!

I've played three connected one-shot sessions in pure Black Company, and it's fun. The PCs got their share of mangling, but no one except NPC's actually died, and a mage got a couple of fingers chopped off from being careless, but the party managed to surprise and kill in one round a 16th level wizard, and they couldn't believe it. (Those familiar with BC will remember Whisper and the Limper). They knew, without doubt, that THEY could have easily been in the same position, and it causes a subtle shift in play style.

 

[sniffles]

My interest is in reforming magic is to get rid of things like:

• Divination, takes the mystery out of the game (I just keep asking God questions each day, rather than investigating and such)

• raise dead ("Just raise me guys" the player says as he runs into the Ice Storm)

• the total reworking of a world necessary to account for how the residents would account for magic (no phalanxs if plentiful fireballs would rip them apart, no walls if other team can just teleport/fly in)

Tormenet

I've never quite understood this attitude toward divination, as any time I've experienced it a divination was more confusing than helpful. If the response is in the form of a quattrain like Nostradamus, or some other obscure and easy to misinterpret format, then the PCs still have to do just as much investigation to figure out what the divination meant as they would have done to get the answer without the divination. You can lead your players around by the nose and hand them a bushel of red herrings using divinations.

I also don't see why a world would have to be reworked to account for things like fireballs and teleportation. Unless the world is so high-magic that every farmer knows a fireball spell, it's not going to cause a major change to the way the world functions. Your average town still needs walls to keep out all the bad stuff that doesn't know how to teleport. If you want a relatively low-magic setting, I'd recommend you be sure you make very clear to your players beforehand what you mean by "low magic", or face the possibility of having some very disappointed players down the road.

 

[Tormenet]

Do you use Grim Tales' class Defense system?

I'm running a game kind of like that now, but I'm using D20 Modern rules for it.

Severed Head, most probably, but still considering. We have not yet made the switch.
Tormenet

 

[Tormenet]

I think the ideas are pretty cool. About the magic - I'd suggest you remove evocation, not divination. Force all wizards to specialise.

Arrgh! Mark! Check out the Black Company Campaign System magic system, it is a thing of beauty. A few base spells that can be almost modifiied modified. You have to then beat a DC based on your modifications to cast the spell.

Thanks for your comments, we think alike.

Tormenet

 

[Tormenet]

I think that it's a really good idea to start out with a list of design goals for your campaign. That way, everyone knows what you're aiming for.

Regarding Divination spells, I always thought they were really cool. With Divination spells, players can use their PCs to gather information and connect the dots without having to rely on the DM to do so for them. Which is another way of saying, "I think that Divination spells allow the players to be proactive."

A worthy insight, thanks.
Tormenet