D&D 5E (2014) Curse of Strahd spoiler-filled general discussion

[MechaPilot]

Now, I don't have the adventure yet, but based on what I've read here, I have to say that I like the changes to Strahd's backstory.

I like that his descent into evil is more gradual. It makes a great deal of sense for it to be that way. Apart from some truly disturbed individuals, most people don't seek to do what is evil. Most people try to do what they think is either best or right or necessary for them and theirs. Along the way, bad choices are made. Those bad choices have some rewards to them, but they eventually pile up and bury a person under their collective weight. This philosophy was even reflected in the dark powers checks presented in 2e and 3e Ravenloft.

I also think it makes more sense with regard to what the authors have said. In another thread here, there was part of the introduction for CoS where the authors talk about returning the vampire to his roots as an abusive monster, instead of the misunderstood (and sometimes sparkly, -shudder- ) outsider they are more often represented as today.

The one thing I have heard so far that I don't like is the apparent reduction or definition of the dark powers. As a fan of the broader, multi-domain version of Ravenloft, I prefer the dark powers to be vague and . . . well, powerful.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Guys, again, Strahd's descent was always gradual. That's not the change we're objecting to. We're objecting to Tatyana not being the instigating factor that pushed him over the edge, that he was already actively evil, already making his Pact with Death, before her. That changes the character in some pretty fundamental ways.

 

[DEFCON 1]

What I definitely appreciate is that we now have three different variants on Strahd's story-- the I6 version, the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft version, and the Curse of Strahd version. Which means I have more ideas to draw from to play my own campaign.

I don't need the same story written exactly the same way three separate times. That doesn't help generating ideas. But now with slightly different versions (or "myths") of the story, I can now create the truth of my Barovia for use in MY Ravenloft campaign.

And to hell with "canon". There is no universal "canon". As soon as you write or play in a game, the "canon" changes based upon what you created as DM and what the players accomplished with their actions. So worrying about the fact some details are different in different books is a waste of energy in my opinion. Pick which details you prefer to use and ignore the others. Which is exactly what you've already done anyway even if you've only ever played the original I6.

 

[Bruce Vistani]

I know I'm going to be adding in some of the plotlines that have appeared in the other Barovian adaptations, because as far as I'm concerned, the more stuff and areas in the valley, the more interesting it will be. So for instance... from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft I'm going to keep Lysaga Hill as an area, probably with a small coven of Barovian Witches. As the ruins of Lysaga Hill are on the road from the Village of Barovia to the Castle... it will introduce the concept of the Barovian Witches early, as well as indicate there is Lysaga out there. I think I might also re-introduce the three fanes of Barovia... the three unhallowed landmarks that need to be cleansed in order to help weaken Strahd. I'm afraid that since I intend on doing a live tarokka reading that I might very well get like five areas that are all in the village or in the castle proper, thus reducing the reason for the group to venture west past the castle to find Vallaki, Kresk and all the other locations. But if I move some of the fanes... like change the fane at the Vistani camp at the Tser Pool to the werewolf caves, and the Lysaga Hill fane to the Ruins of Berez... and then make mention of them in the Tome of Strahd... it'll help sending them out throughout the land.

I also am thinking of re-introducing a few things from the Fair Barovia adventure that [MENTION=607]Klaus[/MENTION] did for 4E. I really like the Ba'al Verzi assassins guild, and think having a few breadcrumbs for them might be a cool hook-- especially since I intend on putting character creation on a long leash... meaning that if a player wanted to be a Rogue and then be an Assassin, they'd need to find a trainer/method to learn the trade. So dropping hints of the Ba'al Verzi might inspire a PC or two. Plus... I also like the idea of Leo Dilysnia perhaps finding his way back to undeath and remain a thorn in Strahd's side, rather than just be a pile of bones in Wachterhaus. Also add in the ideas of a new Dukkar on the hunt for the Vistani, plus adding in the location of the Monastery of the White Sun somewhere along the road heading towards the Ruins of Berez would give potential Monk players a location to learn/get trained/gain influence.

By combining info from Curse, Expedition, Fair, plus a handful of other modules that have a distinct Ravenloft flair. I'm definitely incorporating A Rhyme Gone Wrong from Dungeon 217 because it has an awesome Children of the Cornish vibe-- parents magically aslumbered while the kids are out playing on their own after having made a deal with an evil fey-- that I think would work really well with Baba Lysaga. Or perhaps even Baba Yaga? Another thing from EtCR was that there were three hags that were Strahd's enemies that controlled the three fanes (of which they made Madam Eva one)... but perhaps I could adapt it such that there are three Babas in the valley, each of them watching over one of the fanes-- Lysaga, Yaga, and another one (which I'll make up, or maybe make the hag from Old Bonegrinder a Baba as well-- Baba Roga perhaps?). Put Baba Yaga in the Ivlis Marsh (watching over the Swamp Fane), Baba Lysaga watches over the Bog Fane in the Ruins of Berez, and Baba Roga and her daughters watch over the Mountain Fane at Old Bonegrinder (while capturing children and making them into pies.) Lots of different ways to go.

I'm really looking forward to start mushing all these things together to expand Curse out even further.

Great ideas! I am fleshing my borovia out as well. There's not much going on in the eastern third of the Borovia map. The lakes at the base of Mount Ghakis seem like good places to put encounters. And the Svalich Woods northeast of Castle Ravenloft is a massive empty zone needing filling.

 

[evilbob]

More random thoughts:

Another thing that's a little irksome is how many times "and then they all went mad and killed each other" is used to explain why there's none of the original inhabitants of some place. I know it happens two or three times, and I want to say more than that. Honestly it just feels like shoddy writing to me, and while I can forgive it once (for "atmosphere") more than once is tiresome.

Thinking a bit more about the 3rd gem from the winery, the book mentions it was stolen "10 years ago" but none of the other villains make much sense as culprits. Only the witch and her druid pals want them. The third one would almost have to be an accident. Oh - actually the two-headed guy from the monastery wouldn't be a bad choice. Maybe one time he snuck away and stole the gem because he thought he could use it to make wine for himself, although he clearly doesn't understand how and then later maybe he just forgot he had it. It doesn't fit his character to really ever leave the monastery, but it's less of a stretch than some of the others.

One thing I give the book some credit for is the inclusion of non-hetero relationships. There is one specifically gay relationship that gets called out, and Strahd himself is specifically very open in his preferences. He has at least one male consort and the language about how he may be interested in a party member is deliberately neutral. Granted that's two out of like hundreds, but having more than zero is certainly progress.

The book also does a great job with gender equality, but even the original 1983 version had Ireena as a bad-ass and a good chunk of the non-title major characters were female.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Guys, again, Strahd's descent was always gradual. That's not the change we're objecting to. We're objecting to Tatyana not being the instigating factor that pushed him over the edge, that he was already actively evil, already making his Pact with Death, before her. That changes the character in some pretty fundamental ways.

Does it? To me, it just makes Tatyana, and by extension, Ireena, more symbolic to him rather than him actually loving her. He loves what she represents. But ultimately, all he really wants is to possess her despite her not wanting him.

I never really felt bad for Strahd in the old I6 module. I never felt that if we let him have Ireena, then everything on Barovia would be better off. He's a cruel and selfish monster at this point in the story, and he needs to be stopped. That's what's important and it was true then and is true in this version.

The specific order of events isn't really that important to the game. What would be different if he waited until after Tatyana showed up to contact te Dark Powers? What about the adventure would change?

If we were talking solely about characters in a novel, I'd be more inclined to agree with you...such a subtle distinction might matter quite a bit to character. But this is a game, and Strahd is the villain of the game. The PCs will certainly not really feel any pity for Strahd, and likely won't discover such a level of detail about him. They'll learn the broad strokes, and those will paint Strahd exactly as they need to see him.

 

[Sunseeker]

There is a difference between great writings and personal preference.

Sure. But most modern fantasy literature is not what most literature circles would call "great writing". Really go look up what are typically academically considered "great works of literature" and it will cover a list of books that few people actually care to read.

Salvatore is alright for what he writes: pop-culture schlock. Its the lit-equivalent to a Steven Seagal movie. I was more worried he'd name Martin, King, Rice, Jordan, or some other modern fantasy or horror writer and claim their superiority over the eternal classics of the genres.

Nah. I enjoy their work as much as the next guy, but I can certainly see them for what they are and they're not "great works of literature". And I honestly think RA Salvatore would stand better in my mind if he stopped writing Drizz't books.

I mean I read through almost every book in the MTG series (from the Brothers War to when they stopped making books, though I missed some around Legends and Kamigawa) and I enjoyed the books, but I wouldn't call any of them great and I doubt I'd re-read more than one or two of them ever.

 

[evilbob]

So far I've found what I would call 3 "errors" in the book, although they're open to interpretation. Certainly it's NOTHING like the poor 3.5 Ravenloft book, which was FULL of straight up errors - scores and scores - including typos and bad stat blocks along with all the other stuff that made no sense, AND was published without an ending.

- There's no mention of the 3rd wizard eye's current location (open to the DM)
- The milestones mention "gain a level each time X happens" but if you follow that to the letter the party will be level 15+ before you even get to the castle, unless they skip big chunks
- In the section about Doru, it implies that you can kill him and raise him from the dead. But Doru's been a vampire spawn for about a year, and the resurrection spells are a little confusing about how they work with undead creatures. At the very least, Raise Dead is not going to work under most interpretations of the spell; only Resurrection and that's a 7th level spell - something the party can't possibly have access to when they meet him, or probably at all during their entire stay. Also, depending on how strict you want to be, vampire spawn are "destroyed" when you kill them (at least when you stake them) - meaning you'd actually need a True Resurrection (9th level) to bring him back.

 

[Arial Black]

View attachment 75613

Isn't this the original cover art for module I6?

Who is the woman Strahd is carrying?

 

[Mouseferatu]

If we were talking solely about characters in a novel, I'd be more inclined to agree with you...such a subtle distinction might matter quite a bit to character. But this is a game, and Strahd is the villain of the game. The PCs will certainly not really feel any pity for Strahd, and likely won't discover such a level of detail about him. They'll learn the broad strokes, and those will paint Strahd exactly as they need to see him.

Well, since the absolute best Ravenloft campaign I ever ran was based heavily on the Strahd/Tatyanna story and her cycle of reincarnation, I might quibble with that.

But you do raise an interesting point. I wonder how many of us who truly, deeply dislike this change are also the ones who consider the Ravenloft novels an important part of "our" canon. The novel I, Strahd is easily one of the best of the line, and is also the source of a lot of the deeper looks into Strahd's background and personality. It heavily influences my view of the character, and indeed Barovia as a whole. I can quite easily see how those who haven't read it might have a different view of the importance of specific details in his history.