Customizable Skill Lists

[Psychic Warrior]

I would like opinions on this house rule regarding class skill lists. Any foreseeable problems? I am a big advocate of skill checks for almost anything (even the 'social' ones although the players still have the RP the situation) so allowing them to customize their skill lists within the parameter below seems reasonable to me. Any constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.


Upon character creation each player chooses their class skills for their class within the parameters set out below. Multiclassing into a new class allows the player to again choose their own class skill list but their total number of skills for the new class is one lower than listed below. A third class is reduced by 2 class skills and so on. Prestige Classes and Racial Paragon levels are exempt from this rule - their skill lists are ‘fixed’ and cannot be altered when entering into them.

The number of class skills is limited by both quantity, type (physical and mental) and a few skills are exclusive to specific classes.

The following skills are exclusive to these classes

Appraise – Bards & Rogues
Disable Device – Rogues
Forgery – Rogues
Gather Information – Bards & Rogues
Open Lock – Rogues
Spell-craft – Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers & Wizards
Use Magic Device – Bards & Rogues

While other classes can get ranks in these skills they can never be class skills for any classes but those listed.

The following classes may choose these number & type of class skills when first created.
Physical Skills are those based off of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution
Mental Skills are those based off of Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma

Barbarian: 8 physical & 6 mental / 4 skill points/level
Bard: 10 physical & 15 mental / 6 skill points/level
Cleric: 2 physical & 8 mental / 2 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (religion)
Druid: 4 physical & 10 mental / 4 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (nature)
Fighter: 8 physical & 2 mental / 2 skill points/level
Monk: 10 physical & 8 mental / 4 skill points/level
Paladin: 5 physical & 7 mental / 2 skill points/level
Rogue: 12 physical & 16 mental / 8 skill points/level
Scout: 10 physical & 10 mental / 8 skill points/level
Sorcerer: 2 physical & 6 mental / 2 skill points/level
Spirit Shaman: 4 physical & 10 mental / 4 skill points/level one mental skill must be Survival
Swashbuckler: 8 physical & 6 mental / 4 skill points/level
Warlock: 2 physical & 8 mental / 2 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (the planes)
Warmage: 4 physical & 6 mental / 2 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (arcane)
Wizard: 2 physical & 12 mental / 2 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (arcane) and one must be Spell-craft

 

[BSF]

You know, a couple of years ago I took some advice from here to just do away with skill lists. Any of the PCs in my current game just buy skills at 1 point/rank. I was guessing that it wouldn't break the system. Some people told me it would, others told me it wouldn't. I decided to test it for myself. Aside from needing to tweak the prerequisites for some PrCs, this change has worked just splendidly. I don't have any problems with balance amongst PCs and for the most part, the PCs are very true to their concept in what skills they take.

 

[Crothian]

My only concern is that skills are not created equal and allowing everyone to customize their skill lists will seea lot of people good at spot, listen, search and not so much with the lesser used skills.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

My only concern is that skills are not created equal and allowing everyone to customize their skill lists will seea lot of people good at spot, listen, search and not so much with the lesser used skills.

Why those three? I just don't see them as being more powerful than a Craft skill or Escape Artist. I do ask for those skills to be checked upon regularly but DCs are set to a appropriate-to-the-party level. Having a few more PCs with the ability to make rolls on them doesn't seem too unbalancing. Also given the tiny amount of skill points each class gets they are also sacrificing the ability to jump or climb or anything else. They see the ambush coming they just can't climb the rocky cliff to get away from it.

You know, a couple of years ago I took some advice from here to just do away with skill lists. Any of the PCs in my current game just buy skills at 1 point/rank. I was guessing that it wouldn't break the system. Some people told me it would, others told me it wouldn't. I decided to test it for myself. Aside from needing to tweak the prerequisites for some PrCs, this change has worked just splendidly. I don't have any problems with balance amongst PCs and for the most part, the PCs are very true to their concept in what skills they take.

That might be too radical even for my tastes I actually like the idea of class/cross class skills and that each class gives focus to a few skills but sacrifices focus on others. I

 

[Psychic Warrior]

My only concern is that skills are not created equal and allowing everyone to customize their skill lists will seea lot of people good at spot, listen, search and not so much with the lesser used skills.

Why those three? I just don't see them as being more powerful than a Craft skill or Escape Artist. I do ask for those skills to be checked upon regularly but DCs are set to a appropriate-to-the-party level. Having a few more PCs with the ability to make rolls on them doesn't seem too unbalancing. Also given the tiny amount of skill points each class gets they are also sacrificing the ability to jump or climb or anything else. They see the ambush coming they just can't climb the rocky cliff to get away from it.

You know, a couple of years ago I took some advice from here to just do away with skill lists. Any of the PCs in my current game just buy skills at 1 point/rank. I was guessing that it wouldn't break the system. Some people told me it would, others told me it wouldn't. I decided to test it for myself. Aside from needing to tweak the prerequisites for some PrCs, this change has worked just splendidly. I don't have any problems with balance amongst PCs and for the most part, the PCs are very true to their concept in what skills they take.

That might be too radical even for my tastes I actually like the idea of class/cross class skills and that each class gives focus to a few skills but sacrifices focus on others. I agree that doing this wouldn't upset game "balance". That is, all too often, seen as some kind of 'holy grail' nowadays and woe to the infidel who dares defy it!

 

[Thondor]

You know, a couple of years ago I took some advice from here to just do away with skill lists. Any of the PCs in my current game just buy skills at 1 point/rank. I was guessing that it wouldn't break the system. Some people told me it would, others told me it wouldn't. I decided to test it for myself. Aside from needing to tweak the prerequisites for some PrCs, this change has worked just splendidly. I don't have any problems with balance amongst PCs and for the most part, the PCs are very true to their concept in what skills they take.

Here here! You have my complete agreement not that I've run many games since I officially changed over but my players could always convince me that it made sense for their character to have the skills they wanted before that anyway.

As for your system Physic Warrior, I certainly wouldn't limit forgery to Rogues - fact is I'd probably put Bards and Wizards in their before I put Rogues ( Do all three, Do all three)
Your numbers for choices seem rather high. i've certainly never seen a Barbarian who chose to take 14 different skills -- Maybe we just play very different games.

 

[Crothian]

Why those three? I just don't see them as being more powerful than a Craft skill or Escape Artist. I do ask for those skills to be checked upon regularly but DCs are set to a appropriate-to-the-party level. Having a few more PCs with the ability to make rolls on them doesn't seem too unbalancing. Also given the tiny amount of skill points each class gets they are also sacrificing the ability to jump or climb or anything else. They see the ambush coming they just can't climb the rocky cliff to get away from it.

Jump and climb are weak skills though, magic will easily and fast make them worthless. Spot and listen are the most common skills used. Unless you take special care to make all the dozens of skills be needed and useful all the time, the players will favor the ones that do come up. TRuthfull, craft is not a ksill people use a lot and can do without.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Here here! You have my complete agreement not that I've run many games since I officially changed over but my players could always convince me that it made sense for their character to have the skills they wanted before that anyway.

As for your system Physic Warrior, I certainly wouldn't limit forgery to Rogues - fact is I'd probably put Bards and Wizards in their before I put Rogues ( Do all three, Do all three)
Your numbers for choices seem rather high. i've certainly never seen a Barbarian who chose to take 14 different skills -- Maybe we just play very different games.

Forgery is actually a Rogue only class skill in the PHB. I wondered aobut it but thought to keep skills that were restricted to a single class the same in this system. I could certainly see Bards and maybe wizards getting it to though.

As for the number of class skills this is, again, based off of what the classes currently get. Perhaps they simply don't need as many since they are customizable but I generally went with a similar number of class skills as the class currently has. I doubt any class will have ranks in every class skill they choose - but at least the option is there. I also wanted each class to still 'favour' one type of skill over another (hence the physical/mental breakdown). Maybe a few too many class skills then?

Also these were actually based off my other house rule of +2 skill points/level/class so many of the classes have a decent chance to branch out to other areas. Also I banned Rangers.

Jump and climb are weak skills though, magic will easily and fast make them worthless. Spot and listen are the most common skills used. Unless you take special care to make all the dozens of skills be needed and useful all the time, the players will favor the ones that do come up. Truthfully, craft is not a skill people use a lot and can do without.

But craft does come up in my games. Some of my players quite like the ability to make things (mainly arms, armour etc) in their off hours. My 11th level party still makes frequent use of climb and jump and magic hasn't made those skills worthless in the least. I'm not sure what I'm doing differently than you but it seems my experiences with skills don't mesh with yours. Also would it be overpowering for every character to have max ranks in spot, listen search? Only the rogues are finding those traps and I have noticed players like to have characters that complement each other by covering the 'weak points' in the party. Ie when a couple of characters choose th4e Spot, Listen, Search route and max out those skills a few of my other players start taking things like craft, diplomacy, bluff, knowledge (whatever - although I dream of the day when a character takes local!). Also armour check penalties are going to limit many of the classes in thier skill choice simply because most players don't want to pour skill points into a skill just to offset the penalties they recieve.

 

[Thondor]

Yeah, I like the fact that you've broke them down into seperate phys/mental. But I still feel that the having a rogue with 25 skill pics when there's only 45 skills at all a little steep.
not sure what you broke the totals of mental and totals of physical down two.
It's too complicated for me to go into specifics but I think that those considered with a "low alotemet of skill selection" should go down by 1 on each side - unless one of them is already 2. And thet those with "high alotements of skill selection" should go down by two on each side.
The characters will be able to select almost all the skills they will want. You obviously still want there to be some limiting factors I think this will help.

Yeah I know the PHB only has Rogues with Forgery but this never made sense to me.

IMC I've bumped all characters with 2 skill points up to 4 and those with 4 up to 5 and left the rest as is.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

Yeah, I like the fact that you've broke them down into seperate phys/mental. But I still feel that the having a rogue with 25 skill pics when there's only 45 skills at all a little steep.
not sure what you broke the totals of mental and totals of physical down two.
It's too complicated for me to go into specifics but I think that those considered with a "low alotemet of skill selection" should go down by 1 on each side - unless one of them is already 2. And thet those with "high alotements of skill selection" should go down by two on each side.
The characters will be able to select almost all the skills they will want. You obviously still want there to be some limiting factors I think this will help.

Yeah I know the PHB only has Rogues with Forgery but this never made sense to me.

IMC I've bumped all characters with 2 skill points up to 4 and those with 4 up to 5 and left the rest as is.

How about a revision to giving each class a number of class skills equal to twice thier skill points/level? Going with the +2 skill points/level house rule (which seems so common it should count as errata) it would look something like this

The following skills are exclusive to these classes

Appraise – Bards & Rogues
Disable Device – Rogues & Scouts
Forgery – Rogues, Bards & Wizards
Gather Information – Bards & Rogues
Open Lock – Rogues
Spell-craft – Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers & Wizards
Use Magic Device – Bards & Rogues

While other classes can get ranks in these skills they can never be class skills for any classes but those listed.

The following classes may choose these number & type of class skills when first created.
Physical Skills are those based off of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution
Mental Skills are those based off of Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma

Barbarian: 8 physical & 4 mental / 6 skill points/level
Bard: 6 physical & 8 mental / 8 skill points/level
Cleric: 2 physical & 6 mental / 4 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (religion)
Druid: 4 physical & 8 mental / 6 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (nature)
Fighter: 6 physical & 2 mental / 4 skill points/level
Monk: 7 physical & 5 mental / 6 skill points/level
Paladin: 3 physical & 5 mental / 4 skill points/level
Rogue: 10 physical & 10 mental / 10 skill points/level
Scout: 10 physical & 10 mental / 10 skill points/level
Sorcerer: 2 physical & 6 mental / 4 skill points/level
Spirit Shaman: 4 physical & 8 mental / 6 skill points/level one mental skill must be Survival
Swashbuckler: 7 physical & 5 mental / 6 skill points/level
Warlock: 2 physical & 6 mental / 4 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (the planes)
Warmage: 3 physical & 5 mental / 4 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (arcane)
Wizard: 2 physical & 10 mental / 4 skill points/level one mental skill must be Knowledge (arcane) and one must be Spell-craft

I give the Wizard a slight boost here due to the quanitity of Knowledge skills and the fact that he should be able to learn near all of them. A high Int (18+) character in say, fighter, does run the risk of having more skill points than class skills but they'll just have to cope (not that I have ever seen anything like that happen).