D&D 3.0/3.5 <> earlier eds. re : min-maxing
- Thread starter iblis
- Start date
In 1E, you had two options: to min/max your character or not to. You didn't have very many ways of min/maxing your character, but they were certainly there. e.g. Do I put an 18 into my strength as a fighter or my intelligence? Because of the lopsided nature of bonuses, there could be a huge difference between the effectiveness of characters at the same level.
Did you choose a longsword (which you'd find lots of magical version of) or a morningstar (which you couldn't get a +2 version of by the DMG's tables!)
In 2E, especially in Player's Option, min/maxing had run riot.
In 3E, there's still a lot of min/maxing, though there is more an attempt to balance it - if you choose this option, you can't take this option.
I've seen min/maxing in all editions of D&D.
Cheers!
Did you choose a longsword (which you'd find lots of magical version of) or a morningstar (which you couldn't get a +2 version of by the DMG's tables!)
In 2E, especially in Player's Option, min/maxing had run riot.
In 3E, there's still a lot of min/maxing, though there is more an attempt to balance it - if you choose this option, you can't take this option.
I've seen min/maxing in all editions of D&D.
Cheers!
FireLance
Legend
The difference between 3e and previous editions is this:
In previous editions, practically all the min-max decisions were made at character creation. How to assign ability scores? What race to play? Multiclass or not? What kit to pick? If you used the Player's Option: Skills and Powers or Spells and Magic books, what racial and class abilities to buy? The problem was that some choices were significantly (if not obviously) superior to others. However, once character creation was over, the scope for min-maxing was reduced. Generally, it revolved around getting the right magic items. If you played a human, you might try to dual-class. If you played a wizard, you might try to get better spells.
In 3e, min-max decisions take place over the entire course of the character's career. What class or PrC to take next? What feat to pick? Where to assign ability score increases? Arcane spellcasters choose spells known or spells learned. Rogues choose special abilities. Druids and rangers choose animal companions. Paladins choose special mounts. Players thus have more opportunities to make choices, and some will of course be more optimal than others. Overall, however, the difference between the most optimal choice and the least optimal choice is less significant than in earlier editions.
In summary: earlier editions had fewer choices, but the choices are more significant. 3e has more choices, but the choices are less significant. If there appears to be more min-maxing in 3e, it could simply be because there are more choices. Min-maxing will always occur as long as there are choices to be made.
In previous editions, practically all the min-max decisions were made at character creation. How to assign ability scores? What race to play? Multiclass or not? What kit to pick? If you used the Player's Option: Skills and Powers or Spells and Magic books, what racial and class abilities to buy? The problem was that some choices were significantly (if not obviously) superior to others. However, once character creation was over, the scope for min-maxing was reduced. Generally, it revolved around getting the right magic items. If you played a human, you might try to dual-class. If you played a wizard, you might try to get better spells.
In 3e, min-max decisions take place over the entire course of the character's career. What class or PrC to take next? What feat to pick? Where to assign ability score increases? Arcane spellcasters choose spells known or spells learned. Rogues choose special abilities. Druids and rangers choose animal companions. Paladins choose special mounts. Players thus have more opportunities to make choices, and some will of course be more optimal than others. Overall, however, the difference between the most optimal choice and the least optimal choice is less significant than in earlier editions.
In summary: earlier editions had fewer choices, but the choices are more significant. 3e has more choices, but the choices are less significant. If there appears to be more min-maxing in 3e, it could simply be because there are more choices. Min-maxing will always occur as long as there are choices to be made.
FireLance
Legend
I always seem to be using chess analogies. Min-maxing does not take place in chess because everyone starts with the same set of pieces. However, if chess players had 39 points to build their armies (Queen - 9 points, Rook - 5 points, Bishop & Knight - 3 points, Pawn - 1 point) and could arrange their pieces any way they wanted, min-maxing will occur. Trust me on this.
shilsen
Adventurer
FireLance said:
Just what I was about to say. In 2e, for example, since some of the races and the character classes were much more powerful than others, the choice of race and class could be a min-max issue, and one which would affect the character throughout the course of the game. Once this choice was made, there were less options for min-maxing.
And Firelance, nice chess analogy.
Thanee
First Post
Voted "didn't allow min-maxing to occur to the same extent as 3.0/3.5", but mainly because it simply didn't have the same number of options available, so it's just a logical conclusion.
I do think that more options are better, tho, as they also allow a lot more positive things, which the older editions did not, i.e. making characters that are actually like you imagine them.
So my vote should be seen in the light, that 3E was a step into the right direction (more min-maxing is just a byproduct, but it's not like you have to min-max your characters, 3E works perfectly fine without min-maxing)!
Bye
Thanee
I do think that more options are better, tho, as they also allow a lot more positive things, which the older editions did not, i.e. making characters that are actually like you imagine them.
So my vote should be seen in the light, that 3E was a step into the right direction (more min-maxing is just a byproduct, but it's not like you have to min-max your characters, 3E works perfectly fine without min-maxing)!
Bye
Thanee
IronWolf
blank
There has been min/maxing in character creation in all versions of D&D I have played. That includes the old Basic sets, 1st Edition, 2nd Edition and the 3.x version. All to varying extremes, some players are willing to have a low skill to add to the role playing or choose a unique weapon combination just because his image of the character is fashioned in a certain way. Other players tweak their characters to the hilt with their big motivation being to have the "best" character they can by the rule books. I really don't think it is an edition issue though.
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
I didn't actually start playing RPGs until shortly after the release of 2E, so my comments refer to that edition.
The worst examples of powergaming/min-maxing/etc. I have ever seen happened under 2E, and I believe the system encouraged it. I seem to recall a blade kit bard/ranger with 5/2 attacks at level 1....
The worst examples of powergaming/min-maxing/etc. I have ever seen happened under 2E, and I believe the system encouraged it. I seem to recall a blade kit bard/ranger with 5/2 attacks at level 1....
diaglo
Adventurer
OD&D didn't focus on stats or min/maxing
3d6 six times in order. str, int, wis, con, dex, chr
d6 for hps. 0 hp = dead
d6 for damage for all weapons
it wasn't until Gary started making the game into an ADnD mish mash with the introduction of Supplement I Greyhawk... and started giving bonus/penalty for stats and varying hps for class and varying damage for weapons and...etc...
that min/maxing took off.
he further pushed this envelope with the 1edADnD PHB (1978)
and overpushed it with the introduction of the UA. i still contend he wrote that for his powergaming scions.
but no matter what ... they haven't been able to remove it from the game now. and each new edition just adds more.. well.. almost.. the 2edADnD days imo were the peak.. we have reached the plateau now... until the newer edition starts churning out more books
3d6 six times in order. str, int, wis, con, dex, chr
d6 for hps. 0 hp = dead
d6 for damage for all weapons
it wasn't until Gary started making the game into an ADnD mish mash with the introduction of Supplement I Greyhawk... and started giving bonus/penalty for stats and varying hps for class and varying damage for weapons and...etc...
that min/maxing took off.
he further pushed this envelope with the 1edADnD PHB (1978)
and overpushed it with the introduction of the UA. i still contend he wrote that for his powergaming scions.
but no matter what ... they haven't been able to remove it from the game now. and each new edition just adds more.. well.. almost.. the 2edADnD days imo were the peak.. we have reached the plateau now... until the newer edition starts churning out more books
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