D&D 3E/3.5 (D&D 3.5) Is Monkey's grip worth it?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Welcome to EnWorld! Mind if I give some advice on your character?


Instead of Awesome Blow, use Knockback from Races of Stone. Since you know about golaith's powerful build, I assume you have access to the book. It's just plain better, IMO, and you can get very high bull rush modifiers with it.

I'd go for Shock Trooper before Combat Brute. It's easier to benefit from Heedless Charge than Momentum Swing, and the trip aspect of domino rush + directed bull rush (+Knockback so you don't actually have to move with the fool) offers a good battlefield control option. I'm not sure how much cleave and great cleave will help you, but if it's been useful for you, go for it. Powerful Charge is bad, you shouldn't bother. +1d8 on a charge (and only on the first attack if you have pounce) is just 4.5 extra damage. Look into Leap Attack from C.Adventurer. Doubles the power attack ratio, and combines well with shock trooper. As for Improved Crit...the Keen weapon property is pretty affordable, just saying.

 

[Dandu]

I wouldn't bother with Great Cleave. I'd replace Improved Crit with a Scabbard of Keen Edges. I would advise against weapon focus.

Improved Unarmed Strike won't do you much good. I understand you like the flavor, but it's not going to get used much* so you might as well just "don't and say you did", if you get what I'm saying.

*You'll be wearing gauntlets with your armor. Gauntlets count as weapons and let you make unarmed strikes for lethal damage.

 

[Daniel Vieira]

well, many things...

I already took Awesome Blow, too late to change. but if I remember well, Knockback just projects the target backwards while Awesome Blow can make it fall (I may be wrong, correct me in this case). so, even with the penalty in the attack roll, it is more useful.

I'm still indecise if I pick Combat Brute or Shock Trooper 1st. thanks for the hint.

A Keen weapon is not affordable, the GM decided that the game will be miserably poor (at least for the next few levels).

I really liked the Leap Attack feat you mentioned, thanks! but Powerful charge will add 2d6 to my damage (with powerful build I'll be considered large, not medium). 2d6 is ~7 extra damage, I'm not so sure it's useless. (still, Leap Attack is much better)

Cleave has been essencial in this game, often we fight groups. but Great Cleave won't be so good by now, although some groups we fought had up to 15 mobs, they always tended to spread, so I never got more than 2 together. that's why I chose Great Cleave for level 12 or more, and if it doesn't become useful until there I simply won't pick.

I didn't say I'll pick Improved Grapple, so I didn't understand the last comment. Grappling has been useful tough, some encounters we had to solve things in non-lethal but violent ways, if you get what I mean.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I assume Dandu meant to say Improved Unarmed Strike, not grapple. Hence the comment about wearing gauntlets, which lets you do bare handed brawling without expending a feat.

The reason I think the prone aspect of Awesome Blow isn't so hot is because with Shock Trooper (which should absolutely be your next feat), you can make the bull rushee AND one of his friends both prone, with the domino tactic. Also, Races of Stone has the Rampaging Bull Rush feat, if you don't want to rely on having another foe to get your tripping going. It lets you take a -4 on the bull rush check to leave the person prone. Sure, Knockback and Rampaging BR is two feats, but Knockback also has a higher chance of success* (IME) and most importantly...you can full attack and/or charge with it. Awesome Blow is a standard action to use, Knockback just adds something completely new to your existing attack routine. Knockback ALSO works on creatures up to one size larger than you (instead of up to one size smaller than you) and works presumably on incorporeal creatures (if you use a ghost touch weapon). I get that you can't change feats now (could always try asking the DM, though), but Knockback may still be worth getting anyway, and I thought i should enumerate the differences.

*No matter how high your damage gets, reflex saves always succeed on a natural 20, 5% of the time. A bull rush is an opposed strength check, there is no auto fail or success. If you can get an unbeatable bull rush mod (quite easy when Knockback's giving you +2 per point of power attack, and disputably more with Leap Attack), you just plain win. All that's left to determine is by how much you win (ie, how far the enemy's going flying).

Sorry to hear about the wealth issue, that's going to severely cripple your character, you may want to consider multiclassing a bit to be less item dependent.

 

[Daniel Vieira]

Improved Unarmed Strike was just for the flavor, pointless discussion.

Awesome blow x Knockback + Rampaging Bullrush:

Knockback being usable in full attack is really an advantage... but still, Knockback by itself doesn't trip the opponent, Shock Trooper + Knockback only trips if there's 2, and Rampaging Bullrush is only available if I take Barbarian levels (what I don't want to do before level 15 at least). I think in this case particularly Awesome Blow is somehow equivalent to Knockback + Rampaging Bullrush.

the money issue is not a big deal by now, everyone is low level yet, but it's going to be a huge problem in the future because, form 7 characters, 3 are item dependent (me, another fighter and a cleric) and 3 not so much (non-combat-turned outsiders) and 1 is completely free (a monk... I can't imagine a class more non-D&D than that...). making the game poor is going to imbalance the game with time.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

A monk is the most item dependent (or buff spell dependent, effectively the same thing) class in the game, or at least of the PHB classes. I know the imagery is a fly kicking Mother Theresa, but in play it just doesn't work out.

 

[Dandu]

(a monk... I can't imagine a class more non-D&D than that...)

Sorcerer. Druid. Cleric.

 

[Daniel Vieira]

monk, item dependent? it's really hard to believe seeing the monk in my group doing so nice with no more than common clothes and barehands. he doesn't hit as hard as me and the other fighter, but it's barely impossible to hit him too.


and when I said "a monk is the most non-D&D class ever" I meant style. Sorcerers and the kind are part of any fantasy setting, Monks are not. it's easy to imagine a mage fighting dragons or undead, it's hard to imagine a monk doing anything out of a monastery. /END. it wasn't meant to start this kind of discussion...

 

[Dandu]

monk, item dependent? it's really hard to believe seeing the monk in my group doing so nice with no more than common clothes and barehands.

OK. Here's a sorcerer who has spent 105 gp total on herself. What can a monk with equivalent wealth accomplish at the same level?

he doesn't hit as hard as me and the other fighter, but it's barely impossible to hit him too.

If he's hard to hit, but also cannot hit others, then that means his effective battlefield contribution is pretty limited, especially considering that he'll need an 18 in Dex and Wis to match the AC of a fighter in full plate.

and when I said "a monk is the most non-D&D class ever" I meant style.

My mistake, I thought you made a typo.

 

[Jhaelen]

Sorcerers and the kind are part of any fantasy setting, Monks are not.

I guess you've seen eastern/asian (fantasy) settings?