D&D 3E/3.5 D&D 3.5 Rules Question: How many +1 spiked gauntlets can a marilith wield?

[Asmodeus 9]

How many common (those for 2305gp) +1 spiked gauntlets can a marilith (MM p. 44) wield? (mariliths have 6 hands)

Or with other words: when is a spiked gauntlet a weapon and when is it clothing (in MIC terms)?


What I have found out so far:

• Spiked gauntlets are light simple weapons (PHB p. 116, table 7-5) and they can be magic weapons (DMG p. 222, table 7-12, 38%) too.
• The MIC states that gauntlets use the hands-slot (MIC p. 218, body-slot list, "Hands: gauntlets, gloves"). It also states that all weapons do not use a body slot at all, but "- (held)" (MIC p. 219, - (held)).
• There are several specific "+1 (spiked) gauntlets" in the MIC: Gauntlets of the Blood-lord (MIC p. 101), Storm Gauntlets (MIC p. 139), The Fist (MIC p. 51), Gauntlet of Gruumsh (MIC p. 101). A marilith can wield a maximum of ...

• 2 Gauntlets (= one pair) of the Blood-lord or 2 Storm Gauntlets. This is because these gauntlets use the hands-slot and even a marilith has only one such slot ("a marilith still has only one hands body slot" (MIC p. 219)).
• 1 Gauntlet of Gruumsh. This is because this gauntlet also uses the hands-slot and even a single gauntlet takes up both "halves" of the slot (MIC p. 218, two paragraphs below the body-slot list)
• 6 The Fist. This is because this gauntlet doesn't use the hands-slot but "- (held)" ... like all(?) weapons (MIC p. 219).

The only gauntlet in the weapons chapter of the MIC is The Fist. It uses "- (held)" as its body slot. This matches with the "all weapons use - (held)" statement.
The other gauntlets from the clothing chapter of the MIC use the hands body slot.
So it looks like the slot depends on whether it is a weapon or clothing.

Both, The Fist and Gauntlets of the Blood-lord, require the Feat "Craft Magic Arms and Armor", but do not require the feat "Craft Wondrous Item". So this can't make the difference.

Can anybody help please?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

You can have as many spiked gauntlets to use as weapons as you have hands. Only one pair of gloves/gauntlets can be given wondrous item enhancements, like Dex +2, __ of Storing, ___ of the Balanced Hand, etc...

But the rest can be given weapon enhancements just fine. You could wear multiple pairs of wondrous item enhanced gauntlets, too, I suppose. You'd just only benefit from one pair. Simillar to how a human has 10 fingers (or 8 and two thumbs, whatever), yet only has two "ring slots." You can wear more than two magical rings, but you only get the benefit of two.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Within itself MiC is a bit contradictory. The best I can figure is certain items are meant to be similar to Gauntlets of Ogre Power by giving a buff, and it just so happens that they function as weapons. In all my reading I haven't been able to conclusively verify whether a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power actually act like weapon gauntlets too.

Some of the items, such as The Fist, are meant to be weapons in their own right. By the logic of the MiC though, if one is using The Fist in one hand, then another weapon can't be used in the same hand it seems.

Hm, I can kinda see why my DM bans use of the MiC unless we consult with him first.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Hm, I can kinda see why my DM bans use of the MiC unless we consult with him first.

You're DM makes me sad. MIC is like, the 2nd best book for 3.5 ever published, right behind ToB. The 3 charges/day mechanic is awesome, makes time/resource management non-trivial for spellcasters and non-spellcasters alike, and the items therein are priced reasonably to be within the reach of lowish level characters without dramatically changing their relative power level.

That rant aside, Spiked Gauntlets are different from Gauntlets. Spiked Gauntlets are weapons, and striking with them counts as an armed attack. Gauntlets, on the other hand (hand pun!), utilize the Unarmed Attack option, and attacks with them do NOT count as armed without the IUAS feat. A (Spiked) Gauntlet is most definitely a weapon, and thus takes up the held weapon slot. That said, you could wear a pair of magical gloves/gauntlets underneath your (Spiked) Gauntlets because they are technically a different body slot and thus don't interfere. As stated above, no matter how many pairs of arms you have, you can only benefit from one pair of magical gloves/gauntlets.

 

[Asmodeus 9]

After a week thinking about this problem, I have found a solution that is RAW and RAI in my opinion. Thank you for your help and ideas.


I tried very hard, but could find only two relevant rules about this topic:

1. Several sources indicate (slight differently) that gauntlets are generally worn in the hands slot. These sources are: DMG p. 214, MIC p. 218 (identical to RC p. 83), MIC p. 286.
2. Spiked Gauntlets are light simple weapons (PHB p. 116, table 7-5) and they can be magic weapons (DMG p. 222, table 7-12, 38%) too. All weapons don't use a body slot at all, but "- (held)" (MIC p. 219).

There isn't a differentiation between gauntlets as weapons and gauntlets as wondrous items anywhere in the rules. So the question is, which rule is applicable? Is it #1 (gauntlets use the hands-slot) or #2 (gauntlets use the "- (held)" slot)?

I think the solution is in the PHB errata: p. 1, "Primary Sources".
"weapons", "clothing" and "wondrous items" are much broader terms than "gauntlet". Gauntlets are only a subset of the three.
In general all weapons use the "- (held)" slot (#2), except there are more specific rules for a special weapon.
And in fact there are more specific rules for gauntlets that indicate they use the hands slot (#1).

With this rules interpretation there isn't a contradiction between #1 and #2 anymore and you can explain why magic weapons like Gauntlets of the Blood-lord (MIC p. 101), Storm Gauntlets (MIC p. 139) and Gauntlet of Gruumsh (MIC p. 101) use the hands slot.
There's only one single anomaly left: The Fist (MIC p. 51). I would interpret it as an exception of the exception.


There is another (weak) evidence for this interpretation:
in D&D 4e it says "Spiked Gauntlet: These gauntlets are specially fitted with metal spikes. Unlike other weapons, the spiked gauntlet occupies your magic item hands slot while enchanted." (Adventurer's Vault, p. 10).


@Jackinthegreen :

In all my reading I haven't been able to conclusively verify whether a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power actually act like weapon gauntlets too

This is a good question. I don't know it either, but would say yes.
It gets even more confusing if you compare
- Gauntlets of Ogre Power (DMG 257) with common item effect DEX +2 (MIC 234)
- Gloves of Dexterity (DMG 257) with common item effect STR +2 (MIC 234)
Both items use the hands-slot. Both items grant a +2 enhancement bonus to STR and DEX. Both items cost 8000gp. But only the gauntlets are weapons (? or not? )

 

[Greenfield]

One of the silly paradoxes of the Marilith.

She's a Large creature, meaning she uses large weapons. Longswords and Scimitars weight in at 4 lbs each, doubled for Large, means a total of 8 lbs each, or 48 lbs for all 6. That's within a hair of her total 50 lb teleport capacity.

Normal sized clothing weighs between 2 lbs (peasant's outfit) and 15 lbs (Royal outfit). Double for Large.

So if you ever wonder why her human torso is always depicted as a topless humanoid female, it's not to appeal to the salacious tastes of gamer guys, it's because she keeps leaving her clothes behind. They're over her weight limit.

 

[kitcik]

One of the silly paradoxes of the Marilith.

She's a Large creature, meaning she uses large weapons. Longswords and Scimitars weight in at 4 lbs each, doubled for Large, means a total of 8 lbs each, or 48 lbs for all 6. That's within a hair of her total 50 lb teleport capacity.

Normal sized clothing weighs between 2 lbs (peasant's outfit) and 15 lbs (Royal outfit). Double for Large.

So if you ever wonder why her human torso is always depicted as a topless humanoid female, it's not to appeal to the salacious tastes of gamer guys, it's because she keeps leaving her clothes behind. They're over her weight limit.

I can't believe I can't XP you - that question has been plaguing me for years!!

 

[Greenfield]

If you want obscure game logic...

In 4th Edition, burning damage takes place at the start of your action.

Unattended items don't get any actions.

So...

When you watch the adventure movies, and you see the ancient temple or the caves or the fortress that nobody has entered in centuries, and you see that there are burning torches on the walls, you know it's a 4th Ed. film.

The torches, being unattended items, have no actions, ever, therefore they never take any fire damage, and so they never burn out. However the torches carried by our heroes *will* burn out (at a dramatically significant moment) because, being attended, they get their "actions" when the person carrying them does, and so are taking fire damage.

It all makes sense now!

 

[Wyvernhand]

They're over her weight limit.

As awesome as this is...your first outfit doesn't count against your weight limit. A human who is completely unequipped except for his adventurer's outfit has an encumberance of 0.

So little miss Marilith is nekkid because she likes to let it all hang out, not due to any capacity issues.

 

[kitcik]

As awesome as this is...your first outfit doesn't count against your weight limit. A human who is completely unequipped except for his adventurer's outfit has an encumberance of 0.

So little miss Marilith is nekkid because she likes to let it all hang out, not due to any capacity issues.

Per the SRD:

A marilith usually holds a longsword in each of its six hands and wears many bangles and jewels.

The bangles and jewels count as her "first outfit."

They also carry "standard coins" (see treasure).

Therefore, they must be naked per RAW. Definitely. I'm convinced.