[D&D 3.5e] That New Pit Fiend

[Enkhidu]

Hi Quasqueton!

I think one of the problems people are having in general with what little we know about 3.5e is that WotC has stated that it will be backward compatible with 3e. But I think their idea of backward compatible is different than what you're thinking it is.

From what I can see, backward compatible to WotC seems to be "you still use d20 for most resolution, you still have levels, cast spells, etc and it's really close in the big scheme of things to how you do it in 3e, to the point where it's recognizable as D&D."

The other side of the discussion has the definition of "the new material coming out in 3.5 will fit seamlessly with all available core material and material built off of the SRD."

Now if I'm off base about that, let me know, but I think that's the jist. I'm probably not right on the money about either side, but am taking the extremes to prove a point.

Truthfully, I think 3.5e will be somewhere in the middle - it will fit well with most published material, though small adjustments will have to be made across the board, much like Windows 2K and XP were (yes, I'm using them as an example because I think WotC is adopting this unbelievably successful business model). Will most things that ran in 2K going to run in XP? Yes. Are there a few that won't? Yes. Is an app built for 2K going to have small (sometimes unnoticable) bugs when run in XP? Yes.

Most things people want to do with D&D 3e are going to be possible with only a few changes under 3.5e. But adjustments will have to be made, and "power users" of the systems will be the most affected (if you've beaten the system to death and learned to powergame all to heck, you'll have more work to do to adjust than someone who uses the mechanics more casually - personally, this is the thing I'm dreading, as I just got used to 3e's quirks!).

I could go on, but I figure you've got my meaning - things will change, but it won't be quite as bad as you think...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again ashockney mate!

I didn't, excellent point. But to point of this discussion. At least we're even having a discussion. Go back and take a look at the CR16 stuff in the MM. It would all be auto-hit and probably about half the hit points, which means one round takedown.

Agreed.

Personally I see a 12th-level party representing a 50/50 challenge against a core rulebook Pit Fiend.

With a 16th-level party representing a 50/50 challenge to a revised Pit Fiend.

You know what? I wasn't considering the summoned pet at all. Depending on how that Gelugon looks, I think that's a really compelling arguement for this guy's CR to be above 16.

I made a slight mistake, it can only quicken a certain power once per day. But the example remains the same since it could quicken the Mass Hold Person instead.

The good news from my perspective, is that they're much closer to where they need to be to deal with a high level party's resources.

Indeed.

I didn't even try real hard on this guy, the only thing on the character that's non-core is Expert Tactician. You can imagine how all the prestige classes and splatbooks factor into this equation at high level.

The Mass Hold Monster is ineffective if he's got Freedom of Movement up. But if not, he's toast every time he decides to drop that spell. Rogues and will saves are always a bad combination.

A lot of stuff hangs on a knife edge.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Which would seem to indicate CR 16 for the current pit fiend and CR 20 for the revised one. A party of characters going up against a creature of their CR is supposed to win without too much problem--just 20% of their resources used up.

A single encounter that a party of equal level has only a 50/50 chance of defeating at all is EL their level +4 or +5

Hello again ashockney mate!

Personally I see a 12th-level party representing a 50/50 challenge against a core rulebook Pit Fiend.

With a 16th-level party representing a 50/50 challenge to a revised Pit Fiend.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Elder-Basilisk!

Which would seem to indicate CR 16 for the current pit fiend and CR 20 for the revised one. A party of characters going up against a creature of their CR is supposed to win without too much problem--just 20% of their resources used up.

A single encounter that a party of equal level has only a 50/50 chance of defeating at all is EL their level +4 or +5

Thats true if we assume the relationship between Level (or CR) and Encounter Level is 1=1.

Of course that relationship is not 1=1, but since I don't want to hijack this thread:

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm10.showMessage?topicID=13.topic

 

[jasamcarl]

Let's see, some consider the pit fiend to not be an actual CR16 challenge. Maybe it is just a CR14 as written.

Which is simpler and more "backwards compatible"?

- change the CR to the appropriate level

- alter the whole creature beyond what has come to be accepted as a standard creature in the game

Will they now weaken dragons to be more in line with their undervalued CR? Or will they bump up the CR number to reflect the actual challenge? From the example they've offered with the pit fiend, I expect dragons to loose hit dice and special abilities in revised edition.

Quasqueton

And if they simply did that there would be a dearth of recognizable high level advasaries in the game. They could make up more, yes, but that would take up a larger page count than might be economical.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Lets take a look at some of the points made:

Changing the CR would have been easier than changing the creature stats
No, it wouldn't. Suddenly every adventure with a CR 16 creature has to be altered to contain a better creature, or the balance of the adventure is thrown off (that climactic battle becomes a walk in the park). End result: Different monster stats, work from the DM to find a new monster that fits the theme, instead of just looking up the new monster stats.

This monster is too tough
In general, a wide complaint has been that high-level D&D breaks down. Creatures are too easy, combats are too short and mages rule the roost instead of supporting a well-balanced party. I can't forsee this guy going down to the typical one round of instakill spells which appear to be the norm. That's a good thing.

If he mass hold persons the entire party, the party have done something wrong. If he fails to get someone who is capable of casting dispel magic (that includes a rogue with a wand) or even if said spellcaster has a silent, still dispel on call, then the party are liable to be free in a short period of time, let alone if the mage or cleric do something like counterspelling it in the first place, as they should probably be doing.

Also note that the meteor swarm is probably going to be hitting for 24d6 on a single target, most other targets will be taking 12d6 or 6d6.

Finally, we don't know which abilities were taken AWAY from the creature. Has anyone looked at the effects of a symbol of hopelessness or persuasion? They're right up there with mass hold monster. There's a lot there that we don't really know about.

 

[rangerjohn]

The problem with this is your treating the pit fiend like W.O.T.C. treats dragons as if the party is going to be prepared for them. That's not likely with a pit fiend improved invisibity, flight, teleport, planar travel of some sort I would presume, high move silently, disguise and bluff; this thing screams ambush!

 

[Olive]

but why would a pit fiend ambush you? personally if there's a chance of meeting a pit fiend, my party would know about it.

 

[Technik4]

The biggies...

Summon another Pit Fiend or Friend
Huge Stats
Huge AC
Huge Attacks and Damage
Awesome SR
Power Words (no saving throw)
Grappling

The things they can "also" do that shouldnt bother PCs of high level (due to the spell Permanency, various magical items, and various spells/enhancements that HATE evil).

Improved Invisibility - easily countered
Hold Monster - easily prepared for/countered
Meteor Storm - decent damage, but a 1-shot deal. Might not hit everyone.
Flight - Damn near everyone should be flying by 16th level, especially if your opponent is!
Dispel Magic - Almost a waste of an action for the fiend, Greater Dispelling is what you want at high levels. If the Pit Fiend has time to dispel things (or attempt to) things should already be going his way as it is.
Resistances
DR (Im sure players will find ways around the DR in this version too, it just might mean a backup weapon or an extra spell cast by the cleric).

Is he tough? Hell yeah. Is he undefeatable? Nah. Ive seen 16th level transmuters that can still try and polymorph him (a quickened Poly Other followed by a Poly Object, thats a 25% chance (random guess, not stat analysis) the fight is over before it started. Then theres 3 more PCs! Horn of Blasting anyone? I hear stunned things arent too difficult to take out.

Also what about the fact that a lot of games have more PCs but less character levels. 5 level 15s and the fight is easier, 6 or 7 14s and its easier still, you can only avoid flanking for so long...

I think he puts the RRRRR, back in CR.

Technik

PS- As others have said, I think the higher the CR the more changes youll see, the lower the fewer. This guy is pretty scary even if youre a 20th level character...just like a dragon 4 CRs lower than the party is still pretty frightening.

 

[Celebrim]

Olive: For the obvious reason that the Pit Fiend isn't walking around mortal planes as a 15' tall engine of destruction. It is walking around as a well dressed charming human nobleman (polymorph self) doing his best to decieve people (bluff) and get them to unwittingly do his bidding. That failing, he plays the classic role of the Devilish temptor, 'I'll give you exactly what you want... it will only cost you your soul.' Only when that fails is he likely to resort to displays of force (intimidation) and the overt use of his extensive spell powers, and only when that fails is he going to bother with combat and then only on his terms (all that intelligence + teleport at will).