[D&D 3.5e] That New Pit Fiend

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Granted...this is using quite a few assumptions. But it sets the stage that this guy could fairly easily deal enough damage to take out the pit fiend in about 4 rounds by himself.

More than a few...

Assumes a lot of spells already active on your part; though not its part.

The Pit Fiends Unholy Aura bestows +4 to AC (not sure if you took this into account?).

Doesn't take into account the summoned Gelugon backup (which it could actually use again 'quickened' on the second round without affecting its other tactics).

Assumes Mass Hold Monster (DC 26?) is saved or in some way proves ineffective. Otherwise game over.

Assumes Power Word Stun proves ineffective. Otherwise game over.

Assumes this keen falchion +5 is holy-silver.

Looking at the stats for the revised Pit Fiend it is not very far off the current Solar in terms of Challenge.

 

[Anabstercorian]

I'm reallly not sure how this will work out, but either way, I'm sure that any significantly altered creatures will wind up with significantly altered CR's.

 

[ashockney]

The Pit Fiends Unholy Aura bestows +4 to AC (not sure if you took this into account?).

I didn't, excellent point. But to point of this discussion. At least we're even having a discussion. Go back and take a look at the CR16 stuff in the MM. It would all be auto-hit and probably about half the hit points, which means one round takedown.

Doesn't take into account the summoned Gelugon backup (which it could actually use again 'quickened' on the second round without affecting its other tactics).

You know what? I wasn't considering the summoned pet at all. Depending on how that Gelugon looks, I think that's a really compelling arguement for this guy's CR to be above 16. The good news from my perspective, is that they're much closer to where they need to be to deal with a high level party's resources. I didn't even try real hard on this guy, the only thing on the character that's non-core is Expert Tactician. You can imagine how all the prestige classes and splatbooks factor into this equation at high level.

Assumes Mass Hold Monster (DC 26?) is saved or in some way proves ineffective.

The Mass Hold Monster is ineffective if he's got Freedom of Movement up. But if not, he's toast every time he decides to drop that spell. Rogues and will saves are always a bad combination.

 

[coyote6]

The question I have is this: given the revised pit fiend stats, it seems very likely that 3.5e monsters will be very different from 3.0e monster, especially the higher-end things like outsiders. This is, of course, a bit vexing (given that it looks like it will invalidate not just the 3.0 MM, but the MM2, parts of the BoVD, MotP, FRCS, OA, Monsters of Faerun, DDG, ELH, etc., not to mention many 3rd party d20 supplements); but it also raises questions about material WotC has yet to release.

To wit: why should I buy the yet-to-be released Fiend Folio? Either it will be (a) actual 3.0 material, and thus obsolete before it hits stores, or (b) a preview of 3.5, and thus useless to me now. So why should I bother buying it, at least when it's released -- sure, after 3.5 is out, I'll know whether I want more 3.0 material or never want to see it again, so I'll be able to judge the Folio's value to me. But right now, I don't see a reason to buy the book when it comes out. And after 2-3 months, I'm not likely to bother going back to buy it.

The same question would seem to apply, to a lesser degree, for Savage Species, Races of Faerun, and the Unapproachable East book, to the extent that those books include new critters.

I wonder if any WotC folk are reading this.

 

[jasamcarl]

The question I have is this: given the revised pit fiend stats, it seems very likely that 3.5e monsters will be very different from 3.0e monster, especially the higher-end things like outsiders. This is, of course, a bit vexing (given that it looks like it will invalidate not just the 3.0 MM, but the MM2, parts of the BoVD, MotP, FRCS, OA, Monsters of Faerun, DDG, ELH, etc., not to mention many 3rd party d20 supplements); but it also raises questions about material WotC has yet to release.

To wit: why should I buy the yet-to-be released Fiend Folio? Either it will be (a) actual 3.0 material, and thus obsolete before it hits stores, or (b) a preview of 3.5, and thus useless to me now. So why should I bother buying it, at least when it's released -- sure, after 3.5 is out, I'll know whether I want more 3.0 material or never want to see it again, so I'll be able to judge the Folio's value to me. But right now, I don't see a reason to buy the book when it comes out. And after 2-3 months, I'm not likely to bother going back to buy it.

The same question would seem to apply, to a lesser degree, for Savage Species, Races of Faerun, and the Unapproachable East book, to the extent that those books include new critters.

I wonder if any WotC folk are reading this.

What about the monster do you find incompatible with current 3e? The changes are primarily in formatting not rules or even balance. If you think this thing is too potent at CR16, Wotc has been going in this direction atleast since the MMII, in that those monsters' CRs were determined with a more realistic view of the power of high level characters. I'm sure the Fiend Folio will be the same. The minor rules changes in skill points, BAB, will make barely a dent in its challenge.

Quite franks, beyond pumping up the arguably weak classes as well as high-level monsters, I see very few balance or compatibilitiy issues with the new rules, unless you are completly anal.

 

[Lord Ben]

You can change werewolves to 10/silver and still have an elder earth elemental at 10/+3 or something. Just because you change some creatures doesn't mean you need to change everything to ignore the +'s. If some things still have +'s then any thing in a supplement will still be valid, or the DM can change if he sees fit.

 

[Aloïsius]

Check out the beasties in MM2 for more examples of better challenges appropriate to the level above CR 11.

Let's compare the new Pit Fiend, CR unknown, with a monster from MM2, the Fiendwurm (CR28).

HD Pit fiend : 18d8+144 (255hp)
HD Fiendwurm :24d10+216 (348)

Init Pit Fiend : +12
Init Fiendwurm : +5

Speed Pit Fiend 40, fly 60
Speed fiendwurm 60, burrow 60

AC Pit Fiend 40 (touch 17)
AC Fiendwurm 27 (touch 7)

Attack Pit fiend 2 claw +30 (2d8+14), 2 wings +28 (2d6+7) bite +28 (4d6+7+poison+disease), tail slap +28 (2d8 +7)

Attack fiend wurm bite +33 (2d8 +19)

Special attack pit fiend : constrict 2d8+28, fear aura, improved grab, spell-like abilities, summon baatezu

Special attack fiend wurm : death rift, demonic belch, improved grab, swallow whole

Special qualities Pit Fiend : Acid, cold resistance 10, DR 15/holysilver; fire, poison immunity, regeneration 5, see in darkness, SR 32, telepathy

Special qualities Fiend wurm : acidic hide, acid immunity, DR 15/-tremorsense, portal

Save baatezu : for+19, ref+19,will +21
Save Fiend wurm : for +23, ref +15, will +10

So what ? If the MM2 is right about CR (wich I seriously doubt), the new pit should be between CR 25/30. Come on : Will +10 and no spell resistance : even a level 10 wizard may use Hold monster with some great chance of success against this CR 28 creature.

 

[jasamcarl]

Let's compare the new Pit Fiend, CR unknown, with a monster from MM2, the Fiendwurm (CR28).

HD Pit fiend : 18d8+144 (255hp)
HD Fiendwurm :24d10+216 (348)

Init Pit Fiend : +12
Init Fiendwurm : +5

Speed Pit Fiend 40, fly 60
Speed fiendwurm 60, burrow 60

AC Pit Fiend 40 (touch 17)
AC Fiendwurm 27 (touch 7)

Attack Pit fiend 2 claw +30 (2d8+14), 2 wings +28 (2d6+7) bite +28 (4d6+7+poison+disease), tail slap +28 (2d8 +7)

Attack fiend wurm bite +33 (2d8 +19)

Special attack pit fiend : constrict 2d8+28, fear aura, improved grab, spell-like abilities, summon baatezu

Special attack fiend wurm : death rift, demonic belch, improved grab, swallow whole

Special qualities Pit Fiend : Acid, cold resistance 10, DR 15/holysilver; fire, poison immunity, regeneration 5, see in darkness, SR 32, telepathy

Special qualities Fiend wurm : acidic hide, acid immunity, DR 15/-tremorsense, portal

Save baatezu : for+19, ref+19,will +21
Save Fiend wurm : for +23, ref +15, will +10

So what ? If the MM2 is right about CR (wich I seriously doubt), the new pit should be between CR 25/30. Come on : Will +10 and no spell resistance : even a level 10 wizard may use Hold monster with some great chance of success against this CR 28 creature.

Is it mere coincidence that you choose one of only a few creatures in the book with inflated CRs? In fact, besides this and the mountain giant, I'm having trouble thinking of any creatures this 'easy'.

 

[Celebrim]

ashhokney: Well, to be honest, I think your suggested character is meat to this pit fiend, but I'm not going to get into a "Well, he would do this, but then the character would do this arguement with you."

But I do think it is entirely unreasonable to think that a Int 25+ creature is going to stay toe to toe with a melee combat expert. Instead, at Int 25+ he has practically prescient judgement. He often knows what the players are going to do before they do it. Play him smarter than you are yourself by a degree that you can't even comprehend. Comparitively he is as much more intelligent than the average human, then the average human is more intelligent than plankton. Several things you haven't taken into account.

1) Mr. Fiend can fly and cast fireball at will. Your falchion is virtually useless. Hope you have alot of holy silvered arrows.
2) Mr. Fiend can teleport at will. Add this to your algorithm. If Fiend drops below 50% h.p., teleport away and return when regeneration restores h.p. 3 minutes later. Repeat ad infinitum.
3) Mr. Fiend can dispel magic at will - which will serious impare your Freedom of Action, Haste, and other protections. If you come in buffed up, smart Mr. Fiend (look at that intelligence) casts a dispel and teleports away. Regenerates, cast improved invisibility, teleports back in, casts dispel and rinces and repeats until your spells become depleted. Mr. Fiend isn't going to run out. Party spell casters will.
4) Mr. Fiend can suggestion and charm person at will - your Freedom of Action won't help much against that.
5) Mr. Fiend can use Improved Invisibility at will. Check out that move silently score. Who is going to catch who flat footed?
6) There is a reasonable chance that your rogue/fighter fled the pit fiends fear aura right off the bat.
7) Mr. Fiend can Blasphemy at will. There is no saving throw. Look it up. Quickened Blasphemies would be ugly.
8) Mr. Fiend has improved grab, constrict, and +36 grapple checks. Hope you have been buying escape artist. If you are grabbed, Mr. Fiend can power attack you into mush, fly away with you, or teleport to great height and drop you, or teleport into a dungeon or hostile environment (Hell?) drop you, and teleport out again.
9) Mr. Fiend can summon two Gelugon allies, who are together probably as dangerous as the Pit Fiend is. Many of your tactics require flanking and so forth. Why is a 25 int creature going to let himself be flanked given his allies and manueverablity? Caught in a position where he might be flanked next round, he blasphemes and moves away. Or he simply blasphemes every round and lets the Gelugon's chew you up.
10) Being a godlike smart fiend, Mr. Fiend undoubtably took the chance to Unhallow his location long before the party got there. He probably tied something nasty like Dispel Magic on it, so that any enemy that approaches him suffers a Dispel Magic before combat even really begins.

And all this assumes that Mr. Fiend looks like Mr. Fiend and is bothering with combat at all, given that Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Diplomacy, etc.

 

[Darkness]

This is an excellent point as well. Even a simple little nerf like what they did to HASTE makes a combat with this big boy MUCH tougher.

Now that you mention it, yeah, we don't even know much about 3e revised spells, for that matter.

(Magic items probably won't change too much, but apart from that - who knows...)