[D&D 3.5e] That New Pit Fiend

[Celebrim]

This seems like it would cause more problems that it solved. But I'm open to explanation.

A horse in 3.0 takes up 5'x10' facing. A man on horse back can reach everwhere but directly in front of his mount.

If 3.5 gives a horse 10'x10' facing, how does this affect the rider's reach?

Well, assuming that people aren't jumping to conclusions about no more odd facings, even beyond the wierdness of the mechanics it seems rather logically offensive that a pair of horses side by side have a 20' frontage.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Are you suggesting the aforementioned revised Pit Fiend represents a moderate* challenge for a party of 16th-level characters!?

*will result in a loss of 20% of the parties resources?Are you suggesting the aforementioned revised Pit Fiend represents a moderate*

Yes.

Lets examine that.

If a single monster represents a moderate challenge, then four such monsters represent a 50/50 challenge; and subsequently one such monster must therefore represent a 50/50 challenge for a single 16th-level character.

Is the Revised Pit Fiend a 50/50 challenge for a 16th-level PC...

No, its much more powerful.

A 16th level party has got some really, really ridiculous resources. See...Mass Heal, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, 8d6 Sneak Attack, and Fighter/Barbs with 200+ HP and 40+ AC's.

Mass Heal is as broken as Heal, which as we know is all set for revision.

Horrid Wilting is only going to do about 40 damage; if it penetrates the SR. The Fiend is almost certain to make the save.

Sneak Attack still has to hit (approx. 50% chance?) and surmount Damage Reduction.

This guy will give 'em a good fight. Could he kill PC's? Yep.

Indeed.

And PC's have the resources to deal with that. Granted, I'm not assuming you've got to "rezz" every fifth encounter here, but a good 16th level party of four has the capacity to deal 300+ hp damage per round pretty consistently.

Not against the revised Pit Fiend they won't.

You've got to really "shore up" the hp and defenses on these bad-boys to give them a run for their money.

I think a lot of people refer to a moderate encounter when they really mean difficult encounter; as herein.

 

[The Serge]

I was trying to keep out of this conversation, but oh well.

I have played Pit Fiends. Quite extensively. In fact, for almost two years, one of my gaming group's most persistent foe and nemesis was a Pit Fiend. Also, I've spent a lot of time working on epic versions of Devils at our website, so I'm fairly familiar with these critters.

Simply put, this is what the Pit Fiend should have been all along. However, I don't know that I'm pleased with what this revision says about what we should expect with 3.5. Frankly, I think it's a little much. Rather than gamers just receiving corrections and errata in official form, we are receiving a brand new entity.

Heightened abilities, more feats, better skills, more resistant DR, higher SR. This is a brand new monster I would expect for a brand new version for D&D, not a corrected monster for 3ed D&D. This concerns me a lot.

While I'm not all that excited about 3.5, I've every intention to buy the revised material. But, this will have a tremendous impact on numerous resources if the changes to the Pit Fiend are any indication of other changes.

As for CR, the Pit Fiend in 3ed was more than a match for four 16th level characters. This Devil's manueverablility really makes it a threat. A Pit Fiend with space can teleport more than 400 feet away and start lobbing fireball. Or it can dispel magic and cast meteor swarm. Sure, 16th level characters prepared for a Pit Fiend will have some defenses up, but some can easily be eliminated with a well worded wish. But, as far as I've seen, Pit Fiend CR is not like Dragon CR; i.e. it's not based upon the preparation of the party. A Pit Fiend with improved invisibility, even when cast in the middle of fight, can wreak havoc. I know from personal experience.

As for this revision, I see this as at least CR 20... if not more, assuming the means of calculating CR are the same. Frankly, I'm not all that excited about this primarily since it puts everything out there out of wack if this is the kind of change we should expect in everything else.

 

[ashockney]

UK, just curious...

Have you ever run a 16th level party through a module?

I've done it twice. And 17th and 18th and 19th.

They are tougher than hell.

The 16th level party has the capacity to deal 300 hp damage per round. Yes. I'm talking about CAPACITY here, not "what I'll do against a 40 AC and 36 SR". That would kill the Pit Fiend outright. Round 1. Probably before he got his first action. How do you prevent that from happening? Massive defenses.

Kick up that AC and SR so that only about half the stuff thrown at him hits. Now you're down to roughly 150 hp/round...we're on the right track.

Why stop there? Buff up those Saves, mix in some immunities, and slather on some damage and energy resistance. Very nice. If he's lucky, this step cuts it down to about 100 hit points a round.

Our poor friend has increased his life expentancy to 2 rounds. Nice job!

Now, Mr. Fiend (like his friends call him) isn't going to just stand around and take it. Nope, he's going to bring it back, hard core.

He's got a couple real nice stun and hold effects. What's that really do? Probably negate 1/4 of the damage output for one round or two at the most. Keep in mind a 16th level party has a counter-measure for pretty much everything, and that's IF you can get it past their considerable defenses. Spell Turning and Free Action come to mind. But, let's hope the party was stupid and didn't have those defenses up or with them at the time. So we'll knock a couple of actions out of the middle, and say Mr. Fiend's survived to Round 3. Amen!

So Mr. Fiend now brings it! Meteor Swarm, ha, ha!
24d6 = 24x3 average = 72 points of damage. Assuming no SR, no ER, no Imp Evasion, and no ridiculous saving throw (yes, I'm talking to the Paladin and Monk in the back with big smiles on their faces). Well, this will definitely "threaten" the mage, but pretty much everyone else is shrugging it off or down about 1/4 of their HP. So he's definitely picking on the mage, cause now he's going to go put some melee whoop ass on him!
Assuming of course he can find him. But let's pretend he can. The silly mage forgot to mem any good defensive spells today. At this point in time...we're up to about round 3, and the pit fiend stomps over to the mage, busts him up, and disrupts his spell! D'oh! This is probably where the "likely to die" character would come in. This largely depends on initiative and the previous actions of the cleric. Most likely the cleric would see fit to healing up Mr. Mage, but if they didn't. Uh-oh.

Rinse and repeat. More of the same, but the outcome is pretty heavily favoring the advantage to the party.

I did all of the above, btw, assuming no haste, which using our current 3rd Ed rules, would have AUTOMATICALLY been provided, of the MASS HASTE variety, as the first action in the first round. Significantly increasing the defenses of the party and allowing the Cleric to get off things like Mass Heal and Break Enchantment while dishing out some loving.

This isn't a shot or an attack. Just merely sharing my experiences, and justification for why I'm not surprised Mr. Fiend is a good CR 16.

Check out the beasties in MM2 for more examples of better challenges appropriate to the level above CR 11.

 

[jgbrowning]

hrm, never run higher groups than 14th so the below may be just a pile of poo poo.


wouldn't Mr. fiend
round 1. quickened mass hold monster, grapple cleric.
round 2. quickened mass hold monster, hopfully coup de grace cleric?

rinse and repeat?

and if you face 2 Mr. fiends wouldn't the two quickened mass hold monsters a round eventually get your group of 4 PCs?

why would he ever use damaging spells when he can mass hold monster? he can just teleport about, (staying out of the reach of dimensional anchor), and just keep mass hold monstering?

I assume im missing somethin here....

joe b.

 

[MinscFan]

While I understand what you're saying, I'm just not as concerned about this. First, the stat blocks in many products, INCLUDING WOTC's, have not been consistent in format. WoTC alone produced three different versions. This new revised format is much nicer for the DM to get the information he needs, when he needs it, IMHO. Second, it's just not that different. This isn't a change from AC: -2 to AC:18 (*), it's just a change in printed format, mostly. The rules changes behind it aren't the stat block's responsibility.

True -- about the format. But more is obviously changing than the format. Perhaps all monsters have new stats/abilities/spells -- it seems that way.

Serge, in a private e-mail discussion, pointed out that the changes we have seen thus far seem to put more of the grunt work on DMs. Converting 3.0 to 3.5 whenever we need older material in a new game -- GAWD, did anyone think we would be calling material released last year for D&D 3E old?? -- will become the work of the DM.

I rarely use non-WoTC material without modification as it is, and rarely WoTC now that I think on it, so that isn't a big deal.

Essentially, this move could halt the production of third party products due for release this year so they can wait for the new SRD.

NOW - do I like the new Pit Fiend. Yup. I can't wait to see what they do with other denizens of the planes, and with dragons.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again ashockney!

UK, just curious...

Have you ever run a 16th level party through a module?

Not in 3rd Ed.

Though I have done a lot of playtesting, notably so with PCs and Pit Fiends (not yet with this revised version though).

I've done it twice. And 17th and 18th and 19th.

They are tougher than hell.

Tougher than nine hells though?

The 16th level party has the capacity to deal 300 hp damage per round. Yes. I'm talking about CAPACITY here, not "what I'll do against a 40 AC and 36 SR". That would kill the Pit Fiend outright. Round 1. Probably before he got his first action. How do you prevent that from happening? Massive defenses.

Kick up that AC and SR so that only about half the stuff thrown at him hits. Now you're down to roughly 150 hp/round...we're on the right track.

Why stop there? Buff up those Saves, mix in some immunities, and slather on some damage and energy resistance. Very nice. If he's lucky, this step cuts it down to about 100 hit points a round.

Our poor friend has increased his life expentancy to 2 rounds. Nice job!

Now, Mr. Fiend (like his friends call him) isn't going to just stand around and take it. Nope, he's going to bring it back, hard core.

He's got a couple real nice stun and hold effects. What's that really do? Probably negate 1/4 of the damage output for one round or two at the most. Keep in mind a 16th level party has a counter-measure for pretty much everything, and that's IF you can get it past their considerable defenses. Spell Turning and Free Action come to mind. But, let's hope the party was stupid and didn't have those defenses up or with them at the time. So we'll knock a couple of actions out of the middle, and say Mr. Fiend's survived to Round 3. Amen!

So Mr. Fiend now brings it! Meteor Swarm, ha, ha!
24d6 = 24x3 average = 72 points of damage. Assuming no SR, no ER, no Imp Evasion, and no ridiculous saving throw (yes, I'm talking to the Paladin and Monk in the back with big smiles on their faces). Well, this will definitely "threaten" the mage, but pretty much everyone else is shrugging it off or down about 1/4 of their HP. So he's definitely picking on the mage, cause now he's going to go put some melee whoop ass on him!
Assuming of course he can find him. But let's pretend he can. The silly mage forgot to mem any good defensive spells today. At this point in time...we're up to about round 3, and the pit fiend stomps over to the mage, busts him up, and disrupts his spell! D'oh! This is probably where the "likely to die" character would come in. This largely depends on initiative and the previous actions of the cleric. Most likely the cleric would see fit to healing up Mr. Mage, but if they didn't. Uh-oh.

Rinse and repeat. More of the same, but the outcome is pretty heavily favoring the advantage to the party.

I did all of the above, btw, assuming no haste, which using our current 3rd Ed rules, would have AUTOMATICALLY been provided, of the MASS HASTE variety, as the first action in the first round. Significantly increasing the defenses of the party and allowing the Cleric to get off things like Mass Heal and Break Enchantment while dishing out some loving.

This isn't a shot or an attack. Just merely sharing my experiences, and justification for why I'm not surprised Mr. Fiend is a good CR 16.

I still think you are vastly underselling this Revised Pit Fiend.

Four Revised Pit Fiends (in your estimation) are approximately equal to a party of four 16th-level PCs. Yet you believe a party of 16th-level characters would be a match for them?

Check out the beasties in MM2 for more examples of better challenges appropriate to the level above CR 11.

There are only three monsters (other than the Gem Dragons which I am not going to study for the sake of brevity) within the entire Monster Manual 2 which come close to rivalling the challenge of a Revised Pit Fiend:

The Dread Linnorm; Corpse Tearer and the Hellfire Wyrm.

So if you are going to claim that a Revised Pit Fiend is a moderate challenge for a 16th-level party then so must practically everything in the Monster Manual 2! Not that such an appeal to authority is the basis of my argument of course.

 

[ashockney]

wouldn't Mr. fiend
round 1. quickened mass hold monster, grapple cleric.
round 2. quickened mass hold monster, hopfully coup de grace cleric?

rinse and repeat?

and if you face 2 Mr. fiends wouldn't the two quickened mass hold monsters a round eventually get your group of 4 PCs?

why would he ever use damaging spells when he can mass hold monster? he can just teleport about, (staying out of the reach of dimensional anchor), and just keep mass hold monstering?

I assume im missing somethin here....

joe b.

The cleric is the MOST likely guy in the party to make his save and be defended against Mass Hold Monster. Great Will Save, and Great Wisdom Bonus, and Resistance Bonus to saves from Buff spells = low probability of success. They also are the caretakers of Freedom of Movement. Very likely to be up (or get up quickly), which would negate the Hold and the Grapple.

Same tactic vs. the Rogue. Now that's gonna get ugly in a hurry unless his buddies bail him out. Which they fairly easily can.

Two Mr. Fiends is a different scenario. Now you're talking EL 18 vs. EL 16 and yes, that scenario gets real ugly real fast. From that point on, the PC's MUST have defenses and buffs up to be able to contend. Which, at this level, they typically do.

 

[jgbrowning]

The cleric is the MOST likely guy in the party to make his save and be defended against Mass Hold Monster. Great Will Save, and Great Wisdom Bonus, and Resistance Bonus to saves from Buff spells = low probability of success. They also are the caretakers of Freedom of Movement. Very likely to be up (or get up quickly), which would negate the Hold and the Grapple.

Same tactic vs. the Rogue. Now that's gonna get ugly in a hurry unless his buddies bail him out. Which they fairly easily can.

Two Mr. Fiends is a different scenario. Now you're talking EL 18 vs. EL 16 and yes, that scenario gets real ugly real fast. From that point on, the PC's MUST have defenses and buffs up to be able to contend. Which, at this level, they typically do.

actually i was having him attack the cleric because the cleric would be the most likly to save and he has all the spells that can save the other party members. and now the clerics grappled and his spells become more problematic.

if he gets grappled (even if not held) the constant mass hold monsters will eventually get the low will save guys (fighter, rogue) leaving only the wizard.

course even if the cleric saves 80% of the time, he's at 1/2 chance of failure after only 3 rounds. Wonder what the actual statistical breakdown of the expected saves vrs the mass hold moster spell really looks like for each class...

i think its a bit more than a CR16. We'll have to see if they upped the CR.


joe b.

 

[ashockney]

Tougher than nine hells though?

Now THAT'S thinking high-level play!!!

And, no, probably not on most days.

Four Revised Pit Fiends (in your estimation) are approximately equal to a party of four 16th-level PCs.

According to the way the CR/EL system works. Yep. Granted, the Pit Fiends are tougher in many aspects, particulalry their well-roundedness. However, our party is better in each respective area (Fighter, Arcane Spellcaster, Rogue, and Cleric) and furthermore will probably have even more synergy because of the way they work together better.

Having said that, I would have no problem conceding certain key strengths to the Pit Fiends in comparison (Meteor Swarm, High SR, Special Qualities, and Insanely High Attributes).

Yet you believe a party of 16th-level characters would be a match for them?

A match? 16th Level Party against an EL 20 encounter. The party could win, but they'd need luck and decent prep to do it. More often than not, however, I think the mortality rate would exceed 50% for that kind of encounter.

There are only three monsters (other than the Gem Dragons which I am not going to study for the sake of brevity) within the entire Monster Manual 2 which come close to rivalling the challenge of a Revised Pit Fiend:

Hmmm....

Tempest, page 193, CR16

324 hp
24 AC (Ok, that blows, no pun intended...really)
4 attacks doing 2d8+13 (21x4 = 84 hp avg capacity in melee)
Only good save: Fort
SQ: Elemental, DR 15/+2,
Str 29, Con 28, the rest crap
Whirlwind Ability...which is sick

So, in comparison...the Pit Fiend is far more well rounded, however the damage capabilties are very similar, and the tempest has a wicked-tough damage shield that deals damage AND negates without a save Ref DC31! This effectively takes out most front line melee PC's!
Tetramorph on the next page is in the same ballpark. Awful AC, 300+ hp, SR 32 (sounds familiar), and a wicked tough attack effect (Entropic Touch).

Most of the MM2 monsters have one really sick ability, and a variety of defenses that would be required at the appropriate CR level to "compete".

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying EVERY CR16 should look like the Pit Fiend. No, I want the Pit Fiend to be the high end of CR16 (much like the Dragons of appropriate age category). However, all CR16 creatures need to look much closer to this Pit Fiend, than to what was published originally in MM.