[D&D 3.5e] That New Pit Fiend

[Zappo]

Zappo, Outsiders already get Fighter BAB, Monk Saves and Rogue Skill Points. But I'm glad you did the math for me; in my short look at it, I thought he was getting 10 skill points per level, which would be really out of hand.

Not exactly; outsiders currently get (8+INTmod)xHD skill points.

While a rogue gets (8+INTmod)x(level+3), because he gets four times at first level.

The change brings the monster rules more in line with the PC rules, and I applaud that. Disparity between the treatment of PCs and monsters was and still is one of the things that irks me about D&D, even 3E.

 

[incognito]

Love the new pit fiend with a few nit-picks.

some of the stats are quite high.
The AC is pretty high, I would've preferred 3-5 lower.
same for SR, but only 2-4

Other than that, many high CR devils and demons were a joke for thier CR. Marilith, Balor, Pit fiend, etc.

Now they are tough "on CR" encounters. Like Garillion, Rhemoraz, and Ghoul.

Good, becasue I want my players to poop thier pants when they see a demon or devil.

 

[WizarDru]

Oh boy. I'm a little bummed that they have changed the basic stat block. That means every monster database out there is now invalid. They've also (essentially) made all the third-party creature books that came out as obsolete as 2nd edition material is to 3rd edition -- so along those lines, this is looking like a new version of D&D.

While I understand what you're saying, I'm just not as concerned about this. First, the stat blocks in many products, INCLUDING WOTC's, have not been consistent in format. WoTC alone produced three different versions. This new revised format is much nicer for the DM to get the information he needs, when he needs it, IMHO. Second, it's just not that different. This isn't a change from AC: -2 to AC:18 (*), it's just a change in printed format, mostly. The rules changes behind it aren't the stat block's responsibility.


* - (I'm assuming AC -2 works out to something completely different than the number I just gave here. I don't even remember how AC used to work under 1e, never played 2e, and don't really want to be reminded. Thanks.)

 

[Azure Trance]

I have the Tome of Horrors and CC2 as well as the Monsternomicon; hope they don't change too many things around :/

 

[ashockney]

You may not be singling anyone out by name, but I'm the only one who's mentioned having never used pit fiends. So I guess that means you are talking to me.

My intent TRULY wasn't to single you (or anyone) out. It was a general comment towards everyone who posts on how good/bad high level stuff is impacted when they haven't played high level.

And it is indeed a "new" pit fiend. Will all the other creatures be similarly "new" instead of updated to match the revised rules?

Quasqueton

Agreed. And I agree with your assessment that the "magnitude" of change seems greater than what has been advertised to date. Having said that, I DID really think that the monsters of CR 11+ were ALL in need of revision (except Dragons).

 

[Knight Otu]

Ladies and gentlemen, the lower planes just became more dangerous.

That's a good thing.

Changes to the stat-block format - a good thing, having information at hand when neccessary.

Outsider type beefed up - That's a thing I'm concerned about. They were already rather powerful to begin with, and now they gain feats as characters, it appears.

Facing - No more odd facings I'm a bit sad about, but overall it could prove to be a good thing. I hope they don't adopt the standardized facings of d20 Modern - Some creatures are a bit bigger than that!

New DR - Overall, I believe this is a good change. Most characters will still be able to hurt beasts once in a while, even with magical weapons. Plus, the seemingly expected/feared flood of special materials might not happen. According to the compiled info:

That's right to bypass the Pit Fiend's DR15/holysilver, a Paladin will need at a minimum a +1 holy silvered weapon

Holysilver seems to be a magical silver weapon with the holy enhancement, not a single material. (and I would expect a few sentences like "This material x functions as material y for purposes of DR).

New ability scores for pit fiend - as Darkness said, these stats make some deities look pale in comparison.

New subtypes - Yes! YES! YE ... er... sorry

Tactics are a good addition.

(And I don't think this is CR 16 anymore.)

 

[shilsen]

I wanna see the Balor!

I just wanna see the Solar now. If it's as much more powerful than the revised Pit Fiend as the MM Solar was stronger than the MM pit fiend, hoo boy!

 

[ashockney]

Are you suggesting the aforementioned revised Pit Fiend represents a moderate* challenge for a party of 16th-level characters!?

*will result in a loss of 20% of the parties resources?Are you suggesting the aforementioned revised Pit Fiend represents a moderate*

Yes.

A 16th level party has got some really, really ridiculous resources. See...Mass Heal, Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, 8d6 Sneak Attack, and Fighter/Barbs with 200+ HP and 40+ AC's. This guy will give 'em a good fight. Could he kill PC's? Yep. And PC's have the resources to deal with that. Granted, I'm not assuming you've got to "rezz" every fifth encounter here, but a good 16th level party of four has the capacity to deal 300+ hp damage per round pretty consistently. You've got to really "shore up" the hp and defenses on these bad-boys to give them a run for their money.

 

[Celebrim]

I agree that the outsiders, especially the Devils, in general where to weak to offer an appropriate challenge to PC parties of the level thier CR indicated. On the other hand, I feel that the Dragons where tougher than their CR indicated. So, I'm not unhappy to see that some minor changes are occuring to correct this. Outsider's do probably need a boost to become reasonable challenges. Dragon CR probably does need to go up.

But that doesn't mean I'm thrilled about the particular changes in question.

1) The attribute increases are only slightly short of insane. A Pit Fiends attributes should be roughly on par with the best unmodified attributes of a typical 16th level character, with the exception of STR and CON. That is to say, a pit fiend ought to be no more agile than a 16th level thief sans attribute boosting items, no more intelligent than a 16th level wizard, etc. Because of size, STR should be about +8 above a 16th level unraging barbarian. This is in my opinion necessary for a since of heroism. With the exception of CON, all the stats are unnecessarily about +6 too high, and out of scale with all other published material on dieties, outsiders, and what not.

2) In general, the increases in attributes and other features seem to be intended to balance the creature against only the most tricked-out, well equiped min/maxed, using-all-the-splat-books, fighting for every edge teflon characters. That really bothers me. The SR climb in particular is worrisome, even assuming that's not a type and it shouldn't be SR 36. I do hope that the CR of the creature (or whatever system replaces CR because CR needs a whole lot more revision than the Pit Fiend ever did) raises to the more appropriate 19 or 20 that it looks like to me. Or maybe the new CR system will assume a party of six characters instead of 4. Who knows.

 

[Quasqueton]

Agreed. And I agree with your assessment that the "magnitude" of change seems greater than what has been advertised to date.

We agree to agree.

Having said that, I DID really think that the monsters of CR 11+ were ALL in need of revision (except Dragons).

This is where I lack the experience to comment. But it would seem to be more in the spirit of a simple revision to adjust the CR numbers down, rather than pump the creatures up. One is "backward compatible", the other is not.

No more odd facings I'm a bit sad about, but overall it could prove to be a good thing.

This seems like it would cause more problems that it solved. But I'm open to explanation.

A horse in 3.0 takes up 5'x10' facing. A man on horse back can reach everwhere but directly in front of his mount.

If 3.5 gives a horse 10'x10' facing, how does this affect the rider's reach?

And using the pit fiend as an example - it went from a 5'x5' facing with 10' reach to a 10'x10' facing with 10' reach. Doesn't this effectively increase his reach by 5'? He'll now be threatening 36 squares rather than 25 squares [if we include his own square(s)].

Can someone with Chainmail experience explain this?

Quasqueton